Porsche 911: Bulletproof simple and reliable OR yuppie maintenance nightmare?

[catuck]

So, you're comparing a 911 to a Honda? How about being fair and comparing to other high performance cars ie. Ferrari. To me it's all relative. A Porsche will never be as reliable as an Accord. And an Accord will never perform like a 911.

[Kemo]

Give me a properly rebuilt 3.0 with a properly built 915 and Ill drive that car for the next 200,000 miles without a whole lot of worries

[big911fan]

I have a 1999 Dodger Ram 2500 diesel 4x4. To replace the front rotors only at the dealer was around $1000. I also have a 2012 MB E350 Bluetec diesel. The dealer wants $300 to refill the DEF fluid. It takes about 6 gals. and cost $15 for 2 1/2 gals at Autozone. No more difficult than refilling windshield washer fluid.

Let's face it, the problem is usually dealer markup or high priced, low production parts.

Let's hear some stories from the Ferrari guys....

[wwest]

Wide of the mark....

Most owners are DIY'ers, air cooled anyway, so very few show up in the (st,d)ealer's service bay....

Result, sky-high, rip-off level, service bay prices

[big911fan]

I think we're in agreement. My dealer market comment should have been clarified. I was referring to the markup in the service department. The outrageous prices for even the simplest repairs.

Don't get me talking about my long gone Range Rover....

Except for perhaps this forum, there are many more h2o cooled Porsches on the road and I'll bet most of those owners are service department hostages.

[1200images]

I bought my 79SC in Idaho. I asked the owner if he thought it would make it home to Omaha. 22 years later she is still going strong. Never been in the shop.My sons and have not babied her. All problems have been minor have been fixed in my garage. Gone through a BMW850 and a 635. Both were fantastic drivers but nothing but problems. As far as daily drivers....we are pure Toyota.

[GH85Carrera]

I drive my 1985 every summer on a long road trip. My mother in law thinks I am crazy to pack my little car full of luggage and haul my wife across the country. I drove to Savannah GA in August, drove on all the tours and finished the week with a track day at Roebling Road. Packed the car up and and drove it back across the country. Almost 5,000 miles total.

I would not try that in a 1985 Honda.

This summer I will drive to California.

[ClickClickBoom]

Hey,
Having worked in the dealer auto parts industry, a long, long time ago, it is indeed in the middle. The average dealership mechanic worked on a flat rate schedule, there were waterpump guys, trans guys, brake guys, ect. They depended on volume to make the big bucks. When the 911 was newer off the assembly line they could knock out a valve adjust in 1/2 the book time,because they saw them every day. Fast forward 10 years, the 911 valve guy has transitioned to the new models and was busy replacing the IMS bearing or whatever is the new big MX concern and hasn't touched an aircooled 911 in 10 years, because the 2-5th owner has been going to an independent shop. The independent shop now realizes that they have a monopoly and priced accordingly. If one cannot work on their own car they will always be held hostage to the MX game.
OTH this is my 2nd 911, the first was crunched from the rear by an idiot, both were/are simple well engineered vehicles. When you look at the suspension components they almost look spindly and undersized. Porsche engineering embraces the concept that all systems are interconnected, and as a result the entire package is more efficient than other designs.

[sand_man]

I drove my 930 daily and now drive my 993 the same way. I ensure the car is properly warmed up and then drive it spiritedly yet responsibly. I only use quality fluids (oil, brake, trans.) and change them at regular intervals. The rest I take as it comes. I find these to be very reliable cars, they won't melt, and I doubt Porsche made them to sit unused.

When co-workers find out that I have a 911, they often ask me to let them know when I've driven it so they can see it, and they all seem to be shocked that I drive it every day regardless of the weather and they can see it any time.

[BeeMaster]

If your going to compare the reliability of a porsche to another car compare it to a similar year car. Not many 70s-80s Toyotas on the road anymore. And good luck getting any parts for one!

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Originally Posted by PushingMyLuck

Porsche 911: Bulletproof simple and reliable OR yuppie maintenance nightmare?

Both.

[porterdog]

Bulletproof, yes, in large degree. Simple? Less so. I could never afford a 911 if I were paying Hans and Udo north of $100/hr to work on it, but I find that in general they're pleasant to work on and indeed have been designed to be repaired rather than replaced.

That last is damned rare in this modern age, and products fitting the description should be used and cherished.

[sand_man]

Originally Posted by porterdog

Bulletproof, yes, in large degree. Simple? Less so. I could never afford a 911 if I were paying Hans and Udo north of $100/hr to work on it, but I find that in general they're pleasant to work on and indeed have been designed to be repaired rather than replaced.

That last is damned rare in this modern age, and products fitting the description should be used and cherished.

Agreed.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by PushingMyLuck

Where does the truth lie?

The truth is that they are a moderate PITA for the uninitiated.

For the person that loves them the knowledge base is plentiful and the parts are not that expensive.

Bruce Anderson said that even Ferrari's are no big deal to fix if you invest the time and have good information. Ok you got me on the Enzo, but a 308? They had CIS, I think. Same ***** different car.

Let's say a retied couple that know nothing about cars, but experience their "dream" and buy an 83 SC Cab. They are going to tire of the little repairs quickly.

[porwolf]

As anybody can see from my list of prior Porsches below I had quite a few years of experience with them. All of them except lately my '79 SC had been daily drivers that took me around town and to a lot of places in the the Western United States. All of them except the '79 were bought used anywhere from 3 to 6 years old and were prior daily drivers to other people. I do have mechanical skills and practice and like to do my own repairs and maintenance. But the most involved job were valve adjustments on my cars, and once an overhaul of my '68 carburetors. I have never done an oil change because of the possible mess and and oil disposal challenge. Also I always had good relations with independent, competent, Porsche garages. There the most expensive garage job done was a clutch replacement. I also had a glass-out paint job done on my '72 after a stupid accident that was my fault. I did all the disassembly and reassembly. Came out excellent. Never had real problems with engines or transmissions. Throughout all those years I never felt that a Porsche is more expensive to maintain than any other car. All my Porsches have been extremely reliable and never let me stranded, so far.

[PushingMyLuck]

Originally Posted by timmy2

If you are willing to get your hands dirty and you have decent mechanical skills they are very straightforward to repair and maintain for most.

Paying someone to do it is another story...

Yes, I am capable of light DIY (brakes, fluids, window regulators, O2 sensors, filters, belts, plugs, radiators....)

But, that's another confusion I have.

On the one hand, these are supposedly very simple mechanical cars perfect for DIY..

On the other hand, it seems you need to remove the engine to practically do anything. IMHO, this rules out a huge chunk of light driveway weekenders.
(And the gratuitous reply of "I rebuilt my entire engine in my gravel driveway with nothing but a socket set" ..........in 3.....2.....1......
really doesn't change the fact that most "weekend tune up" guys are simply not equipped to remove an entire engine.

Originally Posted by sballard

I have more experience with BMWs than Porsches. The days of owner repairs is just about over with their newer models. Dealer costs are outrageous. What should be the simple tasks, like changing the battery and water pump, are unbelievably difficult and expensive. With the move in this direction, BMW is throwing away there very large and loyal fan base.

They are making more money than in the history of the company.
They do not exist to serve the whims of nostalgic nickel and dime enthusiasts, but
to lease churn and burn cars to women every $30k miles.
THAT's how you make the big bucks. That and $300 oil changes and $1000 brake jobs.

[MrBonus]

Have to remove the engine to do anything? Where the hell did you get that impression?

[PushingMyLuck]

Originally Posted by MrBonus

Have to remove the engine to do anything? Where the hell did you get that impression?

From this forum.

It seems everything is portrayed as much easier if the engine is removed.
It seems like once you change plugs and wires and oil, there's little else you can do?
Valve covers. Remove engine?
Replace seals and o-rings. Remove engine?
Are you saying this is not accurate?

Exactly what routine maintenance can you do without removing the engine?

[Lapkritis]

Pulling engines might make a man out of you yet. Don't be skeeered.

[PushingMyLuck]

Originally Posted by Lapkritis

Pulling engines might make a man out of you yet. Don't be skeeered.

Unfortunately, I don't have the garage space to remove an engine.
If a lot of routine 911 maintenance requires dropping the engine, then this is definite not the car for me.