First-Time 911 Buyer Seeking Advice

[tumamilhem]

BTW, I found a 1984 Carrera Targa for sale, 140K miles, good condition (supposedly), the guy only put 10K miles on it since he bought it 20 years ago, no engine or tranny rebuild, asking $27.5K. Is it me or is that about $8K too high?

[COLB]

What about issues of damaging valves if the timing belt breaks? Didn't they engineer a remedy for that at some point?

The engines don't have timing belts. But the camshafts are driven off two chains. The Carreras used oil lines to maintain the proper tension -- referred to as "Carrera hydraulic change tensioners". Updating earlier engines to the Carrera system is extremely common -- and pretty much expected on any car that is not a concours queen where originality is paramount. Most SCs have already had it done, but not all. I would say it is a value deduction if it has not.

IMHO find a 1988 911 with less that 100k miles. Find a qualified wrench and do the PPI. Plan on spending 19k to 21k on the initial purchase and then another 5k on needed maintainence. Good luck!

$19-21k is toward the bottom of the market for a sub-100k G50 Carrera. If you can find one at that price, there is something off with the condition, the history, or the mechanics -- or else you are quite lucky, and you better act quick. A well sorted G50 car around $20k will sell in hours -- especially if it is any color other than red, white, or black.

$25-28 is more average market value on good cars with history, records, and no major condition issues.

High retail for dealers and top condition cars is $30-35k depending on colors, mileage, mechanical condition.

They are all 25 years old, so don't expect ANY air cooled car you buy to be completely free of things to fiddle with. Being a 914 guy, I'm sure you get that.

[Roswell]

Last of the air cooled 911's. Most technologically advanced. fewer problems. And much easier to restore due to the availability of parts. Just my opinion.

[darrin]

Originally Posted by tumamilhem

BTW, I found a 1984 Carrera Targa for sale, 140K miles, good condition (supposedly), the guy only put 10K miles on it since he bought it 20 years ago, no engine or tranny rebuild, asking $27.5K. Is it me or is that about $8K too high?

imo, way too high -- especially without top end or tranny work. I'd also be concerned with how much you'll need to fix due to lack of use. Perhaps it's anecdotal, but the more I drive my 911 (it's my daily driver with a 30 mile commute) the more reliable it becomes.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by tumamilhem

BTW, I found a 1984 Carrera Targa for sale, 140K miles, good condition (supposedly), the guy only put 10K miles on it since he bought it 20 years ago, no engine or tranny rebuild, asking $27.5K. Is it me or is that about $8K too high?

I would caveat any price estimate with a disclaimer that it is impossible to give a really accurate estimate without inspecting & driving the car. A PPI is always a good idea, especially if you are paying full market value.

That said, as described it seems to be at the top of the market for a car with that mileage, and no major engine or transmission work. However, there is nothing that says a well maintained car can't go well above 140k without needing it.

Has the top been restored (new vinyl & seals)?
When was the clutch last done?
Does it grind going into any gear?
Is the A/C intact, and does it work? Don't believe "only needs a recharge".
Does it have records?
How much does it leak, and from where?
What color? Rare colors can make a big difference.
Does it have its tools, books, and pump & jack? Replacing those is ~$6-800 if they are missing.
Has the suspension been worked on? It will need new bushings, tie rod ends, and perhaps strut inserts if they have never been done.
etc.

A tatty interior with cracked dash, torn seats, bad carpet, electric gremlins, and a worn out Targa top can cost as much to set right as a top end rebuild.

It would require an immaculate car with impeccable maintenance and history for me to go $27.5k for an '84 at 140k.

But it is not necessarily $8k too much.

[timmy2]

Prices have been rising rapidly over the last 2 years and are expected to continue according to most of what I have read.
Not a lot of good ones out there anymore under $25k...
Pretty soon the hobby guys are going to be priced out of the market.
My advice, Get one while you still can!

[COLB]

Also, if someone chimes in and says that a car is too expensive because they bought an awesome car in 2012 for only $14k -- well, take that with a grain of salt.

The market for these cars is up maybe 50% since early 2012.

[Travis Neff]

I bought an SC last spring, was a great deal from my dad and I knew the previous owner for the past 20 years.

Carrera's have more power, and later cars have a better shifting transmission (which can take more power).

That said, I would buy the best 911 for your budget, whether it is an SC or a Carrera.

A good windows out paint job can cost you 10K+/- if there are no issues under the paint, regardless of what model.

915 transmissions don't seem to make it as far as the G50's so that could be a concern for cost down the road.

Carreras can have premature valve guide wear that the SC doesn't necessarily have, but SC's have a habit of breaking head studs. Pick your poison, in the end the cost to repair is probably similar between each.

SC's can be had cheaper than same condition Carreras, do the math, drive a few and get the best car you can afford.

[tumamilhem]

Originally Posted by COLB

I would caveat any price estimate with a disclaimer that it is impossible to give a really accurate estimate without inspecting & driving the car. A PPI is always a good idea, especially if you are paying full market value.

That said, as described it seems to be at the top of the market for a car with that mileage, and no major engine or transmission work. However, there is nothing that says a well maintained car can't go well above 140k without needing it.

Has the top been restored (new vinyl & seals)?
When was the clutch last done?
Does it grind going into any gear?
Is the A/C intact, and does it work? Don't believe "only needs a recharge".
Does it have records?
How much does it leak, and from where?
What color? Rare colors can make a big difference.
Does it have its tools, books, and pump & jack? Replacing those is ~$6-800 if they are missing.
Has the suspension been worked on? It will need new bushings, tie rod ends, and perhaps strut inserts if they have never been done.
etc.

A tatty interior with cracked dash, torn seats, bad carpet, electric gremlins, and a worn out Targa top can cost as much to set right as a top end rebuild.

It would require an immaculate car with impeccable maintenance and history for me to go $27.5k for an '84 at 140k.

But it is not necessarily $8k too much.

These are excellent questions. Some of which I have asked, but others that I was not aware of and will inquire about. The AC is not working. He said the condenser is fine but it needs a new front bearing (not familiar with this). The color is a dark blue with tan interior. I have been looking for 1984 Porsche color paint codes, but have not found any. Someone provided a link to codes on Pelican Parts before, but the colors are not accurate and some are not even factory colors (I looked up the 914 colors on the same site and 1/2 of the colors didn't even exist). It's a dark metallic blue that was resprayed the same color due to he always had the bra cover on and the humidity slightly damaged the paint underneath from never taking it off. Color matching was not on I suppose due to the rest of the paint slightly faded with age, so he resprayed the entire car (same color). The pictures he posted in the ad were from a while ago before the respray. He is taking current pictures for me now. I'll post them here when I get them. He says the interior is in great shape, just slight fading on the driver door card when he had it dyed a while ago (also waiting on picture). He drove it as a "date car" for him and his wife he says. He doesn't drive it much and doesn't want his son interested in driving it, so he's selling. The other questions you asked I will include in my questionnaire email to him. I've included some of the pics he used for his ad. These were from a while ago and before the respray. Again, waiting on current pics (I don't know why he didn't take current pics for his ad. Maybe lazy). Currently has Momo wheel (doesn't have original, which I will like to get) and doesn't have factory radio. Thanks so much for the info!

Before respray pics:

[tumamilhem]

Originally Posted by Roswell

Last of the air cooled 911's. Most technologically advanced. fewer problems. And much easier to restore due to the availability of parts. Just my opinion.

What advancements were made mechanically from '84-'88? (Just because I'm currently inquiring about an '84, if there is any difference). Thank you for your input!

[tumamilhem]

Originally Posted by COLB

They are all 25 years old, so don't expect ANY air cooled car you buy to be completely free of things to fiddle with. Being a 914 guy, I'm sure you get that.

Ain't that the truth. lol

[tumamilhem]

Originally Posted by darrin

imo, way too high -- especially without top end or tranny work. I'd also be concerned with how much you'll need to fix due to lack of use. Perhaps it's anecdotal, but the more I drive my 911 (it's my daily driver with a 30 mile commute) the more reliable it becomes.

That's what I was thinking. I mean, I don't mind it being 140K miles if it had engine and tranny rebuild (not that it really needs it at 140K, but may soon enough). With the rebuild it's good to go for a long time again.

[tumamilhem]

Originally Posted by Travis Neff

I bought an SC last spring, was a great deal from my dad and I knew the previous owner for the past 20 years.

Carrera's have more power, and later cars have a better shifting transmission (which can take more power).

That said, I would buy the best 911 for your budget, whether it is an SC or a Carrera.

A good windows out paint job can cost you 10K+/- if there are no issues under the paint, regardless of what model.

915 transmissions don't seem to make it as far as the G50's so that could be a concern for cost down the road.

Carreras can have premature valve guide wear that the SC doesn't necessarily have, but SC's have a habit of breaking head studs. Pick your poison, in the end the cost to repair is probably similar between each.

SC's can be had cheaper than same condition Carreras, do the math, drive a few and get the best car you can afford.

Thanks for your input! I really appreciate it.

[Roswell]

Originally Posted by tumamilhem

What advancements were made mechanically from '84-'88? (Just because I'm currently inquiring about an '84, if there is any difference). Thank you for your input!

G50 transmission is a hugh difference. Upgrades in fuel mapping (chip design) in 1986.

[Travis Neff]

Don't the early 84-85 cars, if you want to do a chip upgrade, require resoldering in the new chip vs, pop in in the later models?

[COLB]

tuma,

nice color -- blue is definitely a positive, assuming the repaint was done well.

Just scattershooting from the limited pics -- again, take it all with a grain of salt.

The after market radio is not a huge deal -- originals are rare, and even rarer in working order -- so long as it works, and is decent quality, I wouldn't sweat it. However, the extra speakers below the dash are unusual. There is going to be an amp somewhere to drive all those things. I'd ensure all the wiring is solid, and all the gauges, lights, and electronics work. I'm terrified of wiring harness work, and the sound system indicates that one has seen some splicing.

Cosmetically, the car has a lot of mods that are not unusual, but nor are they positive for value. In fact, anything cosmetic that doesn't actually improve handling or engine performance is generally a net negative on value. Examples:

- The Momo wheels are popular aftermarket picks, especially as the stock wheels come unstitched over time - really a matter of choice. A replacement original wheel can be had in black for around $300, and you could sell the Momo to offset the cost.
- The red shift knob is weird, but a cheap fix.
- I'm personally not a fan of the rotated gauges -- many people think it is a sign of track use.
- The polished petal Fuchs have selective appeal, but any Fuchs are better than aftermarkets or later non-factory wheels.
- Boxed rockers. I'd want to know why they were installed. These cars are galvanized and generally don't rust easily -- but it happens in salty climates and after damage. Door sills, rockers, inside fenders, battery box, etc.

Some other issues:
- The dash pad says "cracked dash" -- which is not unusual, but also not great.
- It looks to me like the seats were redone in vinyl (which is cheap), and don't exact match the rest of the interior -- but that could be the pictures.

Not sure what he is talking about with bearings -- unless the compressor is shot. If the A/C doesn't work, but the compressor is functioning and all the parts are installed, you can do a minimal R-134 conversion for a few hundred, and get a short term decent solution. Doing it "right" is more like $1500 for barrier hoses & upgraded components.

Given the cosmetic issues, and the lack of major engine/transmission repairs, I think his pricing is pretty aggressive. I would be looking closing to $20k for that car rather than $27k. Maybe more if the maintenance is otherwise sound, and the suspension has been sorted.

Just my $.02

[80-911SC]

yea but he is going to have a hard time matching ...

look at his first pics in the post if you dont get it ... little sarcasm ....

[Nico911]

Let's make it short and sweet :

If you want the cream of the crop, get a nice documented 1987-89 Carrera coupe. It has the G50 transmission, the 3,2 engine is great and the overall reliability is bulletproof.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by JEM

what is a g model sc?1have an 81 sc and have no idea what you are talking about

I have to clear this up. Porsche used to refer to their yearly model ranges with a letter. O, A, B , C, etc. They eventually disconinued this practice. The G models were the 1974 cars. Nothing after 1974 is a G model, so there are no G model SC or Carrera 3.2 cars.

JR

[javadog]

I wouldn't buy a car at that price, with that kind of mileage AND a repaint. Not an attractive interior color, either. If the wheels have been chromed, as opposed to polished, that's another deal killer for me.

FWIW, in 1984 the Carrera was similar to an SC, with a larger motor and larger brakes. 1985 the Carreras got new seats and some interior changes. Some people don't like the new seats, as the seating position is a little higher. Electric seats were available and they could be pretty heavy.

In 1986, they changed the dash vents which helped the A/C. The seating position was revised again, to gain a little headroom.

In 1987, they added a hydraulic clutch system and the G50 gearbox, which were heavier. Some people like this, some don't.

In general, most years Porsche added something else as standard equipment and the cars got a little heavier.

JR