All h4's the same?

[Mean951]

Good evening ,

A friend of mine has a nice set of H4's from a 914. Would they fit my 911? I currently have us spec sugar scoops.

Thanks,
Anthony

[Jesse16]

If you mean will the 7" round lens fit, then yes, I think so. Anything from sealed beams to Cibie or other non-sealed lens units with an H4 bulb will fit the space. Like whats in a sugar scoop style housing. You can also fit an H4 bulb into the lens unit that came after the sugar scoop style which has the lens out front of the trim ring. H4 is the bulb.

[Mean951]

Im sorry man, I am new at this. So if i just buy the bulbs themselves, What else would I need to convert my sugar scoops to the euro h-4? So all h-4 units are the same?

[porwolf]

Originally Posted by Mean951

Im sorry man, I am new at this. So if i just buy the bulbs themselves, What else would I need to convert my sugar scoops to the euro h-4? So all h-4 units are the same?

No, there are two types of H4 headlights: The Euro H4 which are completely different from the US sugar scoops, different construction, sloped lens front, more streamlined, integrated into the fender design. They come as a complete assembly and attach to the front of the fender headlight bucket. The Euro H4's are substantially more expensive than the other kind:

Euro H4's:



Then there are the 7" Hela or Bosch H4's which are a replacement for the big US sealed beam light bulbs. Those H4's just mount instead of the sealed beam light bulbs and uses to rest of the sugar scoop assembly.

Light output is about the same for both types. Both use the same H4 light bulbs. The Hela H4's are a lot less expensive.

Hela H4's:

[Mean951]

Thank you!

[spuggy]

(Excellent summary deleted)

Originally Posted by porwolf

Then there are the 7" Hela or Bosch H4's which are a replacement for the big US sealed beam light bulbs. Those H4's just mount instead of the sealed beam light bulbs and uses to rest of the sugar scoop assembly.

Not to forget the Cibie Z-beams, also available as a replacement for the US sealed beam and fit exactly the same way. Even spendier than the Bosch, but regarded by many as the best available back in the day.

Amazing how much difference lens/reflector design can make. With the same bulb.

[tcar]

Originally Posted by spuggy

(Excellent summary deleted)



Not to forget the Cibie Z-beams, also available as a replacement for the US sealed beam and fit exactly the same way. Even spendier than the Bosch, but regarded by many as the best available back in the day.

Amazing how much difference lens/reflector design can make. With the same bulb.

Cibie Z-beams are almost impossible to find in good condition any more. Sadly.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by tcar

Cibie Z-beams are almost impossible to find in good condition any more. Sadly.

The current Cibie 7" H4 E-codes are still available though. Can't imagine they'd be too shabby.

Although once you're talking Hella, Bosch and Cibie, you're a million miles away from either no-name garbage or US sealed beam units...

Heh. Once, driving a 944 with US sealed beams in heavy rain on an unlit road at night, I had to turn the lights off before I was convinced they were actually switched on/lit, they were that bad...

[mostromilano]

Mean951 - if you decide to do a drop in H4 lamp, you really should consider going for the Cibie H4 units over the others currently available (Bosch and Hella). The phrase "night and day" difference applies almost literally here.

The Z beams are nice - but on the road they were not very different from the Cibie H4 "standard" convex lamp. Minor differences that a trained eye would notice when properly aimed.

That's another thing often not discussed even though it's vitally important - when you get a new lamp set, aim them carefully, preferably with you or representative weight in the car.

[ghamilton]

Everything you need to know about auto lighting; and more!

Daniel Stern Lighting Consultancy and Supply

[Reifle]

I am running Cibies with 80/100 watt bulbs. they are in great shape and give great light at night!

[964TargaC2]

Dont forget to add relays so you dont fry things!

[Mean951]

Originally Posted by spuggy

The current Cibie 7" H4 E-codes are still available though. Can't imagine they'd be too shabby.

Although once you're talking Hella, Bosch and Cibie, you're a million miles away from either no-name garbage or US sealed beam units...

Heh. Once, driving a 944 with US sealed beams in heavy rain on an unlit road at night, I had to turn the lights off before I was convinced they were actually switched on/lit, they were that bad...

Guys, Thanks so much for the reply's! What is the diffrence between the Cibie h-4 and a Hella? I am sorry to sound like a newbie( kind of am). But I currently have sugar scoops, is it as simple as just replacing the lenses, ot do i need complete new hardware also?

[Jesse16]

You will get exactly what you see in porwolf's post a above. A complete lens/reflector unit that you put the bulb of your choice (wattage wise) into from the back. If the high wattage bulb (nice if you drive at night alot) then you need to consider having a relay set-up so all that power isn't going through your headlight switch gear and maybe a high temp plug end. I got all mine from Daniel Stern lighting. I like the Cibie because I've used them in the past and was told they are just a bit better than the Hella light pattern wise. All I know is they are very good.
FYI, the high wattage bulbs are a bit more sensitive in my experience to blowing out if you drive a lot with them on. I've blown 2 in 4 years. Probably are more of a low production specialty item.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Mean951

Guys, Thanks so much for the reply's! What is the diffrence between the Cibie h-4 and a Hella? I am sorry to sound like a newbie( kind of am). But I currently have sugar scoops, is it as simple as just replacing the lenses, ot do i need complete new hardware also?

Sealed beams suck both because they're usually a poor lens design (cheap), and also because the inside of the unit gets coated with the off-gassing from the filament over time, dimming the output as they age.

Both the Cibie and the Hella 7" H4 units are reflector/lens assemblies that take H4 bulbs. They drop straight into the sugar scoops instead of the sealed beam unit, no additional hardware required.

The only difference between the Cibie and the Hella would be the internal design of the reflector and the lens itself, which directly corresponds to light output/pattern. Both would probably be very, very good.

Bosch almost certainly also make simple 7" replacement reflector units designed to replace a sealed beam unit (I'd be astonished if they didn't).

However, most folks when they say "Bosch H4's" in the context of a 911 are referring to "Euro H4's" - which were factory standard equipment for the 911 (all markets except the US) between the H1's used for the early cars and the H5's used towards the end of the production run. Due to the DOT's 1950's lighting regulations, the US market got sealed beams (and thus the sugar scoops) instead.

H1's are very good; independently aim-able bulbs. They're also NLA and very scarce, not to mention very sought-after for period-correct cars. And so they're very, very, expensive.

The Euro H4's are complete assemblies that replace the sugar scoops entirely, so are the most expensive alternative. Look nice though. They're not DOT-approved. But if they're properly adjusted, it's unlikely anyone would ever object or notice.

My H5's had great light output (bright), but while the pattern was OK on high beam, the lows just gave a tiny hot spot right in front of the car, with almost no illumination whatsoever of the kerb/sides. Might not even matter to you if you don't run unlit country roads.... I replaced mine with Euro H4's, which were a huge improvement.

Just dropping replacement reflector units into the sugar scoops is the easiest/cheapest upgrade - you get a better reflector/lens design and the ability to use bulbs - quality of bulbs varies tremendously - and so option to run higher wattage than stock, or just to replace as they age/dim.

If you want increased light output, a relay kit will save your headlight switch (mandatory for higher wattage bulbs) and re-wiring the headlight harnesses with heavier gauge wire will minimize voltage drop at the bulb. Even with stock wattage bulbs, those two steps alone can result in staggering amounts of extra light outout...

[Mean951]

Originally Posted by spuggy

Sealed beams suck both because they're usually a poor lens design (cheap), and also because the inside of the unit gets coated with the off-gassing from the filament over time, dimming the output as they age.

Both the Cibie and the Hella 7" H4 units are reflector/lens assemblies that take H4 bulbs. They drop straight into the sugar scoops instead of the sealed beam unit, no additional hardware required.

The only difference between the Cibie and the Hella would be the internal design of the reflector and the lens itself, which directly corresponds to light output/pattern. Both would probably be very, very good.

Bosch almost certainly also make simple 7" replacement reflector units designed to replace a sealed beam unit (I'd be astonished if they didn't).

However, most folks when they say "Bosch H4's" in the context of a 911 are referring to "Euro H4's" - which were factory standard equipment for the 911 (all markets except the US) between the H1's used for the early cars and the H5's used towards the end of the production run. Due to the DOT's 1950's lighting regulations, the US market got sealed beams (and thus the sugar scoops) instead.

H1's are very good; independently aim-able bulbs. They're also NLA and very scarce, not to mention very sought-after for period-correct cars. And so they're very, very, expensive.

The Euro H4's are complete assemblies that replace the sugar scoops entirely, so are the most expensive alternative. Look nice though. They're not DOT-approved. But if they're properly adjusted, it's unlikely anyone would ever object or notice.

My H5's had great light output (bright), but while the pattern was OK on high beam, the lows just gave a tiny hot spot right in front of the car, with almost no illumination whatsoever of the kerb/sides. Might not even matter to you if you don't run unlit country roads.... I replaced mine with Euro H4's, which were a huge improvement.

Just dropping replacement reflector units into the sugar scoops is the easiest/cheapest upgrade - you get a better reflector/lens design and the ability to use bulbs - quality of bulbs varies tremendously - and so option to run higher wattage than stock, or just to replace as they age/dim.

If you want increased light output, a relay kit will save your headlight switch (mandatory for higher wattage bulbs) and re-wiring the headlight harnesses with heavier gauge wire will minimize voltage drop at the bulb. Even with stock wattage bulbs, those two steps alone can result in staggering amounts of extra light outout...

Outstanding! Thanks for the info.

[porwolf]

Spuggy, great short description of sugar scoops and alternative head lights. Just one question to the drop-in H4 lights to replace the sealed beam bulbs: Do those H4 lights also have the "Euro H4" asymmetrical light pattern for the low lights? That light pattern required in Germany and Europe is superior to any US alternative. It really brings out a strong, wide light pattern in front of you without blinding on coming traffic.

Euro H4 light pattern:

[Mean951]

Great photo!

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by porwolf

Spuggy, great short description of sugar scoops and alternative head lights. Just one question to the drop-in H4 lights to replace the sealed beam bulbs: Do those H4 lights also have the "Euro H4" asymmetrical light pattern for the low lights? That light pattern required in Germany and Europe is superior to any US alternative. It really brings out a strong, wide light pattern in front of you without blinding on coming traffic.

Euro H4 light pattern:

Yup. The pattern used by the "Euro H4's" is the E-code pattern (if you look at the lens, they have an identifying "E" mark moulded in the glass and a number; think the latter just identifies LHT or RHT).

As you say, the E-code pattern puts all the light on the road, with sharp cut-offs to avoid dazzling oncoming traffic. Great diagram, BTW - I expect we'll see that one again

In contrast, DOT regulations of the same era apparently stipulated light scatter, in order to read reflective, non-illuminated, road signs at night.

Daniel Stern is an automotive lighting engineer, so lighting is kind of his thing. As you might expect, he knows how to do it right. His web site has great information and he can supply high quality/hard to source stuff like Cibies, ceramic bulb sockets, relays etc. ghamilton already posted a link above, but here it is again Daniel Stern Lighting Consultancy and Supply.

Not all E-codes are equal. Quality of the design determines just how good they are. You can buy no-name Asian-made H4 reflectors for about the same price as the sealed beam units (e.g. less than the price of a decent bulb)... I don't know what standards these comply with - if any..

You should be very happy with any E-code reflector unit made by any "name brand" - especially one of the ones noted for great lens/reflector design. Like Cibie, Hella or Bosch.