high-torque starter bit the dust (long)

[ischmitz]

It started a couple of days ago when I tried to start the engine and nothing happened - no dimming of the gauges and no action from the starter at all. After turning the key a couple of times the starter kicked in and the car fired right up like always. Odd I thouht, maybe the ignition switch acting up.

Today the super-gau: First it did nothing again just like on the previous incident. And then after wigling the key a couple of times it got stuck in cranking mode. Once the engine ran I could still hear the starter motor running. And even when I removed the ignition key the beast kept cranking the engine over. Once the key is put back into the ignition to ON the engine catches right away and then after about 30 sec the starter finally stops. And those are loooong 30 seconds.

First I thought it was the electrical part of the ignition switch but later I confirmed it really is the starter relay. I took the relay apart and couldn't find anything obvious. The plunger moves freely and the return spring seems fine, too. The little sprocket is spring-loaded and readily returns into the housing.

But when I put it back into the car it got worse: Now, as soon as I start to crank the little gear doesn't even fully engage in the ring gear and the thing keeps going and going and going. I can pull the yellow wire and no difference. Once I interrupt power from the battery for a split-second the relay disengages and it will stop spinning. It now acts like a bi-stable relay.

At the same time I can see the tachometer going nuts when the thing free-wheels. I assume the plunger is bouncing around in the relay housing and that is what causes heavy electromagnetic interference and keeps the starter motor spinning.

For the time being I yanked the high-torque and put the old heavy Porsche starter back in. Now I am debating whether I should get another high-torque starter or a reman. Bosch unit. The reason I went with the high-torque unit was that the 3.6 is demanding especially when hot. Sometimes the stock starter had trouble turning the engine over.

Opinions?

Ingo

[sc_rufctr]

I've heard nothing but good things about the high torque starters...
but scary story just the same.

How long have you had it? (warranty)

[Steve W]

Who's starter were you using, or where did you source it from?

[ischmitz]

Not sure where it originally came from. I got it from MikeZ a few years back because it had failed more or less new. If I remember correctly he got it as part of a 915/V8 combo in a 914 he bought. It looks like the one our host sells and I believe they are all made on the same press somewhere in the far East.

It had a cold solder joint and the solenoid wasn't working. I fixed it and it has been working flawlessly for probably 3 or 4 years. Then all of a sudden the first symptoms a couple of days ago and then total failure.

What throws me is that it looks and feels perfect when on the bench. But not only does the little sprocket not engage into the ring gear properly any more. The dam thing won't shut down and that is downright scary.

I guess I will file it in the round file.

[DW SD]

I bought new hi-torque / gear reduction unit from ebay for $120 shipped from a guy out in Temecula or Eastern Southern California. Can't remember, exactly. I think they use the Toyota motor and gear reduction. It has been flawless for several years (3 or 4). I think it has the nippondenso motor.

I suspect he still makes / sells / distributes them. Might be worth a shot. Worked great for me.

Doug

[ischmitz]

Found it Doug - search for "PORSCHE 911 MINI STARTER IMI " the guy is in Riverside. That puppy looks exactly like my failed one. I guess 4 years isn't that bad for service life so I might get one just in case my old Porshe gets tired. Remanufactured Bosch are more expensive.

Interesting that the add mentioned shiming when you have issues. I wonder if that is why mine doesn't fully engage into the ring gear. But then why does that behavior develop all of a sudden.

Ingo

[petevb]

Originally Posted by ischmitz

Found it Doug - search for "PORSCHE 911 MINI STARTER IMI " the guy is in Riverside. That puppy looks exactly like my failed one. I guess 4 years isn't that bad for service life so I might get one just in case my old Porshe gets tired. Remanufactured Bosch are more expensive.

Interesting that the add mentioned shiming when you have issues. I wonder if that is why mine doesn't fully engage into the ring gear. But then why does that behavior develop all of a sudden.

Ingo

The high torque starter couldn't handle my 3.6 cup motor. You might look into the 993 Tiptronic starter to see if it fits. That's what we went to in my car and so far it seems to be both light and stronger than either starter:

Welcome to Windrush Evolutions - WEVO Blog

[tobluforu]

Originally Posted by ischmitz

Found it Doug - search for "PORSCHE 911 MINI STARTER IMI " the guy is in Riverside. That puppy looks exactly like my failed one. I guess 4 years isn't that bad for service life so I might get one just in case my old Porshe gets tired. Remanufactured Bosch are more expensive.

Interesting that the add mentioned shiming when you have issues. I wonder if that is why mine doesn't fully engage into the ring gear. But then why does that behavior develop all of a sudden.

Ingo

I bought one of those ebay starters, hooked it up on my 72, started car and all was well. Took car out on road and after 1\2 mile of driving the motor sounded like it was about to let loose on me (nasty grinding noises). In other words, the starter needed to be shimmed, but no shims came with mine so I sold it.

[DW SD]

Maybe this is a case of better to be lucky than good
Mine continues to work great (knocking on wood).

Doug

[Steve W]

I have the same starter Doug is using with no problems. Initially I installed it without the shim and could hear moments when the flywheel ring gear was lightly buzzing against the starter teeth like a skilsaw to a sheet of metal. Took it out, installed the shim and no more problems since.

[john walker's workshop]

so how is your ring gear? they get chewed and will hang onto the bendix gear and as long as the gear is stuck in the out position, the contacts in the solenoid are trying to operate the starter.

[ischmitz]

Good point John - I guess I need to drop the engine and inspect the ring gear. It felt like the bendix gear was getting hung up on the ring gear and that caused the solenoid not opening.

Now that I think about it, recently my engine every once in a while had this new overtone. It sounded like a turbo or interference from the alternator in a stereo if you know what I mean. But I wasn't the stereo (it was switched off). I thought is was the alternator bearing. But now coming to think of it maybe the bendix every so slightly touched the leading edge of the ring gear and that is what made it grabby.....The frequency is about right - 800 RPM x 60 teeth = 800 Hz

However, with the old style 911 starter it works fine for the time being. Maybe it's return spring is stronger.

Ingo

[rusnak]

At first, it sounded like a bad solenoid. If the bendix is not fully out, there is no contact for the starter to turn, but the ring gear scenario sounds plausible too.

If I remember correctly, Randy Webb was having problems with his ring gear getting chewed up by a high torque starter.

[Carrerax]

What ever happened with this? where does the shim go? I was thinking about buying one of the ebay ones. Are they ok when shimmed?

[Carrerax]

So the ebay one with a shim should be good to go and last awhile right?

[Joe Bob]

In retrospect, I advised using a shim.....funny how this thread popped back up. Yesterday I had to whack the solenoid to get it to release....looks like it may be going south.
__________________

[Carrerax]

How long have you had it?

[ischmitz]

I finally got myself a stock 911 starter (rebuit) and it's working fine. Who cares about s couple of extra pounds with the 3.6...

[petevb]

I'll again suggest that someone else try the 993 Tip starter wevo found for my car. It has been stronger than either the Hi-Torque or stock, is much smaller and lighter than stock, and they got one for less than $300. Maybe there is an unknown gotcha installing into another car, but I think it direct replaces and early starter... It'd be nice to dump that brick:

[Carrerax]

So that will bolt right in with a 915 trans on a earlier motor?