Initial Pics of Turbo setup
 

Here are a couple of pictures of my motor with the Turbo exhaust manifold attached, it is still wet from the Por-20 high heat paint. I'll install the cooling system and tin in the next day or so and then comes the install and finger crossing :D http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/turboside.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...ust bottom.jpg

Hey,

Did you do the exhaust pipe fabrication? Different length exhaust pipe on each cylinder end, is that a concern to extract power? What turbo size/brand are you using? I'd like to know more about that as I'm looking into doing mine someday.

Thanks,
jerry

No I did not do the fabrication, I bought this entire setup from a guy in CA. I don't really care for it, as a matter of fact I have already re-welded a couple of areas because of fit problems. I have done a lot of research on this type of setup (draw through) and the exhaust length is not that critical. If I like performance I will fabricate my own exhaust next winter using mandrel bent tubing and better welds.

This setup is based on a Garrett T-3 turbo with an internal waste gate set at 8 psi. I will run it using that much boost for the initial dial in process, then install a dial-a-boost to play with the boost levels. The PO ran 13 pounds of boost and had no problem. He had manufactured his own spring setup for boost adjust, I'd rather dial it in. The carb is a Weber sidedraft 45 with water injection. I was in the process of designing my own setup, then someone on this forum steered me towards this advertised setup, it was close to what I wanted to do and was reasonably priced, so I bought it. It should be interesting! I'm surprised that no one has commented good or bad. I know it's not that pretty, but it will produce ponies!

Randy

OK, I'll comment...bravo, I love to see people with the balls to try something new for more power on their 914s. Keep us posted on the progress and dyno runs when they happen. Good luck.

Nathan

Randy,

Are you running a cylinder head temp gauge on that setup? Just the plain VDO spark plug kind should work, just to keep an eye on the head temps.

I'm really curious to see how this setup works... :)

May 19th is getting closer and closer! And remember, no trailer queens allowed in the T4 club!!! LOL

Later,
Tom

1bad914, your project is really interesting. I hope it works out. good luck and thanks for the photos.

The issue of equal length tubes for exhaust headers and intakes is an interesting one. The early Indy car turbo installations look very crude, both on the exhaust and intake sides. The basic idea was that these engines were making more power than normally aspirated engines so the details didn't really matter. But current turbo engines have beautiful equal length headers and balanced intake systems which indicates that the basic performance rules do apply to turbos as well. It's all relative I guess.

Another good comparison is the Porsche 917/10 Turbo Can Am car and a contemporary turbo sportscar like the Audi A8, which makes the 917 turbo installation look ancient.

Mike

Tom,
These 2.0 heads have a CHT sensor...I think! See pic. This is a very rudamentary setup, but if I like it I will refine it.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/lftsideturbo.jpg

Why didn't you go with a high volume oil pump?

I have a Type 1 HD oil pump that I am going to convert, I just have not taken the time to do it. I guess that will happen before the air box goes on :D I need the extra volume to push the oil thru the turbo cooling sytem and then back to the case. Good eye Kenny!

Randy

Tom, if you and Randy show up on the 19th, you'll be there by yourselves. The show is on the 18th. :)

Randy, looks like a lot of show, but still no go! I've got mine all together now, just painting the tin up all pretty, and porting my manifolds to match my big ol' hogged out heads. Should be bolted to the trans this week!

Good luck,

G

First--Very kewl! Should be a blast to drive--120-160 HP is nothing to sneeze at in a lightweight 914-4.

Second--See if you can locate "sammyg2". This looks and sounds a heck of a lot like his old turbo setup. He bought a partly-done setup, like you, and finished it. Drove it for a while and then sold the car. His setup used a suck-through sidedraft Weber as well, but I don't think it had water injection. He said it was good for 7-8 PSI boost on the 91-octane junk we can get in CA. He dialed it up higher on occasion and used race gas, I think.

Third--the CHT sensor you have circled is the stock one for the EFI. It will respond too slowly for you to save anything if the temps start to spike. It is out away from the combustion chambers, in a bunch of metal that takes time to warm up, and has cooling air flowing on a lot of it. The general consensus is that this is not a good location for a sender. (It's convenient though!)

A better way to do this is to use a ring thermocouple under a spark plug. It is closer to the chamber, has less metal around it, and is mostly shielded from cooling air by the plug and head. It is also a lot more accurate than the stock thermistor-type sensor--I don't think any gauges are calibrated to that one.

Four--An EGT or mixture gauge would be a Good Thing. You do NOT want a forced-induction setup to run lean. Ever. The Exhaust Gas Temp gauge will tell you about a lean condition by reading very hot, and even one of the cheap narrow-band O2 sensors will tell you when you run lean. (It won't tell you how lean, but since any lean is bad it is a good enough indication.)

BTW, never use a narrow-band O2 sensor as your primary tuning instrument. It is very reliable at telling you "rich" or "lean", but very poor indeed at telling you how far you are into rich, or into lean. (That reading depends a lot more on the temperature of the sensor than it does the actual oxygen content of the gases.) A wide-band O2 sensor is far better at telling you what your mixture really is... But it isn't that necessary in this case, as you mostly want to avoid running lean in any way and aren't too worried about running rich.

Five--Look for posts by "ejm" and "evill". They both currently have and drive turbocharged 914s, though theirs use CIS injection. They will both have good ideas about what can be done reasonably and what can't, and good ways to break parts and good ways to avoid breaking parts. If the Shoptalk forums were open (they closed yesterday, I haven't looked to see if they're back yet) you could look for posts by either of them over there too. There were links to pictures and some good info posted there.

Some pics of their setups can be found here:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/MotorCity/DaveDarling/ECR_01/Friday_AM.html
http://www.pelicanparts.com/MotorCity/DaveDarling/ECR_01/Poker_Run.html

It sounds, to me, like you are in for a lot of work, a lot of frustration, and one heck of a lot of fun!! I'm thinking we'll need to take up a collection for your surgery--to get the huge grin off of your face... :D

--DD

Thanks for the advice Dave. If I remember right it was Sammyg that sent me to the ad about the Turbo. The motor is a 2056 to start with so I'm expecting 150+ hp. Even at 8 psi. If I crank the boost it will get scary. The PO thought he was pusing 180-190 with 13 PSI. That was on a tired 2.0. We'll see what it does, this is all one big experiment! Hey Grant, I new it was the 18th, Mr. Perso needs to check his calender. If I can't trailer it there then I don't want to be part of your club!!http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/nahnah.gif

I trailered my Ghia to it's first show, and guess what, it was the same one two years ago!

Hey Guys,

Randy, Dave is correct in that the stock head temp sender is very slow to react. The best way to go is to wire up a VDO spark plug temp gauge. At least you'll know how hot your NEW heads are getting. I am going to forcast that if anything is going to blow up on this, it's going to be your heads first. Protect your investment.

Yes, I had my date screwed up, so sue me. Thats my one mistake for the week... ;)

What's cool is, we have 3 very different cars with 3 very different motor configurations, but all going towards the same cause. I love it.

Later,
Tom

Is this going in a 914??? If so is there enough clearance at the rear of the engine for the pipes coming up? They seem to take a lot of room? As for temps, a much more sensitive method would be exhaust temps as this will also give you an idea of what the cylinder is firing like at boost and what effects timing is having on things. Dave is right, 200 HP in a four cylinder 914 is pretty neat. Good luck

As John indicates...there appears to be some body modifiacations to make it work in a 914...Why not leave the turbo out of the engine bay and under the car?

I look forward to the results. neat sound I bet...

You can't turbo a 914! I crack myself up everytime I say that.

Yup, very similar to my old set up except the collector on mine was on the other side if the tranny. Mine ran great at 7 psi, good at 9 psi, anything above that was asking for trouble. I did not have an external oil cooler, but I sure could have used one. If you don't have one I would definitely get it before you go anywhere near 13 psi.

A little advice, run it rich on top end at first and then gradually work your way down. If it is already dialed in then you can skip that part, just make sure it doesn't go lean under boost. I ran mine extra rich to control combustion temperatures and keep it running cooler.

Equal length exhaust runners are primarily for scavenging, that does not come into play at all on a turbo motor. BUT... evenly spaced pulses will spin up the turbo a little quicker and reduce lag, not much but maybe a little. That's why more modern systems are made that way. I would be nice to have but IMO not worth the hassle to build it that way.

Oh, and put back as much of the engine tin as possible, sealing up what you can. That will keep the hot stuff down and the cooler stuff up. You don't need gaps or holes. Of course that goes with all type 4s.

The only thing that the PO left off was the back tin, I will not leave it off, I will cut it to fit. You should see the exhuast on this thing, it looks pretty cool! It will come out the stock location, he said that it was deep and throaty!

All the heat in the engine bay sure will bump up the fan inlet air temp. That coupled with boost will definately create a bit of heat, for sure.......

Add a small intercooler? Maybe one from an A4 1.8T...those aren't that big.

"All the heat in the engine bay sure will bump up the fan inlet air temp. That coupled with boost will definately create a bit of heat, for sure......." So, why is the heater... ah turbo in the "up" stream side of the cooling system? I predict a hot motor. In both regards...:)

Hmmm... Maybe an aluminum box to isolate the hot stuff from the rest of the engine bay?

Just thinkin' out loud.

--DD

I will be using water injection, it works like an intercooler. I'm not going to get into the workings of water injection, but it will help the sytem run slightly cooler while decreasing detonation. It is really quite ingenious, I truly should be running both water injection and an intercooler, but this car will be a weekend toy, it will not see track use or any really bad thrashing....sure!!:D Here is a link that explains the injection system: http://www.510again.com/articles/watering/watering.html

Randy

I think your missing the point. Water injection will cool the intake charge, however, if it is done on the intake side of the turbo I doubt it will have any affect. An innercooler would also do the same, however, you will have to duct the hot charge from the cooler away from the engine bay. Having the Turbo in the engine bay is like running without spark plug boots times 100...The cooling fan will suck air that is heated by the turbo, not to mention the heated intake charge.

I am sure it will work. You will get 150 hp. you will get lots of fun...but the heat will be the down fall of the application. Oil from the turbo lube will return to the engine...hot, make its way to the oil cooler, which is being cooled with more hot air. It is a viscious loop.

The turbo is essentially an exhaust component. Other than maybe a buick grand nationalor a turbo corvair,yYou would have to look hard to find a production car with Turbo in the engine bay. Check out the rear of an 917 ;)

The kings of aircooled heat management, Stuutgart and Wolfsburg, have produced the template, follow their lead...

Scott

Uh,.....no.
The turbo will not heat up the engine compartment very much at all unless the engine is shut off after spirited run. You may think it would, but trust me on this, It doesn't. BTDT.
having said that, I'm assuming that the exhaust collector, exhaust pipe, and turbo are properly wrapped with isulation. The standard exhaust insulating tape works great on the pipes, and they make a heat shield that's shaped to fit the turbo wonderfully. Turbo city in Orange, ca. sell them and they work well. If the hot stuff is not properly insulated, all bets are off.
Oh, and an intercooler doesn't work very good at all with a pull through system like this one. The fuel and air are already mixed before they go through the turbo. That in itself presents some problems with keeping the fuel atomized at lower velocities as the turbo acts as a centrifuge. Ad into the equation an intercooler where a warm air/fuel charge is cooled down, you're just asking for the fuel to puddle on all those square inches of surface area. That does all kinds of wonderful things like running some cylinders above 16 to one while running others so rich the fuel washes the oil off of the cylinder walls. Not good.

If you want to go intercooled, port fuel injection is about the only show in town. It can be done with other systems but it will be a major PITA getting it ro run well at anything other than WOT.

Oh, one other thing: water injection is a very neat trick, but if you really want to spice it up run a 50/50 mix of water (distilled) and methanol. Who hoo, that will get you way up in the boost range safely. Methonol has fewer BTUs by volume that gas but has mucho more than water. That means it will run cooler but still give some energy to the equation. Also water has a tendency to displace the fuel so at high amounts can actually make the engine run lean (and hotter).
Methanol give a wider cushion and it also acts similarly to a gasoline having an octane range in the 120s. It isn't the same, but that's how it works. Methanol or ethanol will resist pre-combustion and pre-ignition big time, they just don't burn as hot and make as much power.

Eitehr way with water or water/alcohol mix, make darned sure tyou keep an eye on your engine oil. you don't want any of that wet stuff diluting your oil so watch it and change it often, make sure you give it a chance to get up to full operating temperature and get out of the boost completely for a while before you get to your destination and shut the engine off.
BTW the smile you will be wearing the first time the boost puts you into your seat and your engine keeps pulling harder and harder way up past 6500 rpm will not go away easily :-)
Even with a stock cam a 2 liter will pull all the way to the rev limiter and will break or float the valves, but it won't fall off like a choked down stocker will. It feels linear but I havent seen the dyno graph to prove it.
It takes a little discipline to back off in time and save the engine.

Thanks Sam,
I'm glad to hear that you had no problem with heat! It makes me feel a lot better hearing a voice of experience on a setup very similar to mine. I do have tape on the exhaust manifold as you can see, and I have this funky looking super thick thermal covering that goes on the exhast side of the turbo, I'm planning on wrapping the exhaust with tape until it leaves the engine bay area. When I hear you tell me these things about the Turbo it makes me really smile :D . The main reason I started looking at making a turbo was the comment that someone made about you can't turbo a 914, whether in jest or not it made me think that it would be a unique way to make the 914 come alive!

I'll have to look into the methanol thing, that would be interesting. I'll look into it after I get everything dialed in. Did you run any type of head temp sensor. Also did you run your oil supply line out of the oil pressure sensor location. Did you have any problems with the carb to turbo intake freezing or no pr-heating enough. I have ton of questions, but will refrain from taking up forum space, if you don't mind I'll email you! OBTW I will be putting this car on a DYNO when I'm done! We are planning a local DYNO day at my local Turbo shop, I'm hoping to get Tom Perso and Grant involved.

Thanks again Sammy,
Randy

re: Dyno Day.

I'll be there, trust me. I'd be curious to see what kind of power I'm throwing to the ground with my 2270.

Should be good times!

Later,
Tom

I don't know, it could be a blessing or a curse. I'd like to think that I'm making loads of power, and be ignorant of the truth, as opposed to finding out I barely make more than stock after spending big $$$.

It probably won't be that bad, but our lofty ideas can often be shattered.

Still, I'll be there with the Red Baron! (well, it's sort of a bare metal gray right now)

Later,

G

Thanks for all that great info Sam, all I've ever known is a modern tubo setup not one running on carbe. Even though I'm not making a turbo myself, it's always cool to learn stuff :cool:

Nathan

Any time Sammy G (or anyone who knows him!) says "You can't turbo a 914", it's a joke. That was the conventional wisdom for years (yes, perpetuated in part by me!). Then Sammy put one together. And then Evill Ed. And then EJM. And then Oerdith. (Jeff, grasshopper, are you still lurking?)

And then, of course, European Car in all their wis-dumb printed a "tech answer" that you cannot turbocharge a 914. When the guy who bought Sammy's car wrote in to mention that it could be done and has been done, they pooh-poohed it as "stone-age and primitive" and somehow not worthy of any consideration. Uhhh, yeah. :rolleyes: I guess a magazine that specializes in ooohing and aaahing over near-stock cars with big rims and bodykits is not the best source of what "can" and "cannot" be done...

I'm still waiting on reliability data for the turrbo setups. None have fared that well so far. Evill Ed lost two motors (the first was tired when he turbo'd it; the second appeared to be a problem in assembling the motor that killed it quickly) so far. Sammy's car was sold and then the engine and turbo sold separately. I don't know how well EJM's car is faring, but it is the most sophisticated setup of the lot. And Oerdith's tired old 2.0 motor had a failure as well. (Might have been a failure to keep the boost at reasonable levels....)

It'll be interesting when everyone gets enough miles on their turbos to see how they fare in the long term.

--DD

Dave, you car is normally aspirated, what's your excuse? :)

Not knocking Sammy or anyone else running a carb'd turbo car, but yes, that is stone age, so I can understand EC's comment to some degree.

For those that insist :) on using carbs and turbo's together, here are a few lists that might be of some interest:

Blow Thru Turbo Group

and

Drawthru Turbo Group

Neat info and shows how resourceful some people can be.

I bought the book that the moderator wrote from these two forums.....some pretty cool ideas, some practical, some not, but they all work.

Mike

My system was very much like the system in the pictures above and I loved it for it's simplicity. I wanted to drive it and not tinker with it. After I put the engine together and bolted up the turbo it was running about 12 hours later. I fine tuned it a little here and there for a total of maybe 8 hours, after that I just drove it. I even took it to my first AX in an Diego before the rings had a chance to seat ;-)

At the time I didn't know squat about electronic fuel injection but I did know carbs and that's what I went with, go with what you know.
I like the KISS priciple, less things to go wrong. Stone age is fine with me.

BUT.....................the next turbo project I build with be CIS, no bout a doubt it :-)
CIS gets a bad rap but I absolutely love it now that I understand it more.

As far as reliability: My engine had at least a zillion miles on it when I bolted up the turbo. All I did was freshen the heads and re-ring. The bottom end was tired and I never managed to hurt it.
Jeff's engine was way more tired that mine, AFAIK the only problem he had was with an aftermarket ignition system constantly failing, and he had some broken exhaust studs that caused some big leaks under boost. It was basically a "mule" motor just for developmental work, he was going to rebuild it after he got the fuel system dialed in but then he got side tracked.

My guess is that as long as you control the temperatures and the rpms the engine will last many, many years UNLESS you get the boost bug and crank it up farther than you should.
Boost is way more addicting than crack, a little more is never enough :-)
I figure on a stock motor 5 psi is the sweet spot with no problems at all. 7 psi is great, but will make the engine run a little hotter, time for an aftermarket oil cooler.
9 psi screams but will probably shorten the life of the engine a little (not a lot), oil cooler is manditory as is synthetic oil.
Anything above that I don't know. I had mine to 11 psi a couple of times and the engine didn't like it. It didn't really complain, I just sensed that is was very close to the edge.

There was that one time when I was tinkering with the waste gate and got carried away.............................................. ..................
.....................
The boost gauge pegged instantly(it only went up to 1 bar) as soon as I gave it gas in first. The engine over revved faster than i could lift my foot, white smoke was boiling off the rear tires and i had this really ugly noise rattling around in my head that could only be one thing, major pinging. I got out of it fast enough to keep from hurting the motor, I never even tried to go big boost again after that.

That's what cracks me up about the guy that had this system before, he ran it at 13 pound consistently! Do you think that was the reason that his motor crapped out and he was rebuilding it? He ran an external cooler and had the water injection to avoid detonation, I immediatly dialed it back down to the stock wastegate setup, which should be between 6 and 8 pounds. He had a 2056 and had the carb all dialed in, I hope to bolt it on and at least have it run without major tweaking, Once I get the cam broken in and the rings seated then I'll play! :D It may all blow up in my face, but thats a chance I'm willing to take! I will have it on a chassis Dyno in June.

Randy

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/turboside1.jpg

Dave, your last post is a little off base. You may have some of this confused with another person. I have not had reliability issues with my engines. The 1st turbo, a 1.7L, began making a very loud metallic rattle, I thought it was a bad cam, but it wasn't. Upon tear down, that engine looked and mic'ed out perfect. There was no evidence of damage from the turbo. The pistons and rings were perfect, no signs of leaks at the heads, bearings, valves and chambers perfect.

I then built the current engine, a 2.0L. I never had a problem with this engine during or after assembly. This engine runs very strong with the turbo and 10-psi boost pressures.

However, this engine made the same exact loud metalic rattle as the 1.7L did. The only reused part of the engine was the case, so this problem really bothered me. I finally found the culprit to be the exhaust pipe from the waste gate was rubbing against the sheet metal on the rear of the engine and hitting the trunk floor area. This was the cause of the noise, which was louder and worse under certain throttle conditions. I have since reshaped the pipe and completely eliminated any noises.

The bottom line is, all the noise, from both engines, was from the waste gate exhaust pipe. The 1.7l was torn down for no good reason. As a matter of fact I am going to freshen and re-assemble that engine.

As for intercooling, I started with a quality H20 injection system that worked very well at suppressing detonation. I then tried an air to air intercooler with less then impressive results. There just isn't enough air flow through the cooler in the engine compartment. I am now back to H20 injection. An air to water charge cooler would be the ideal way to go, and that is whats next on my list.

As for engine compartment heat from the turbo, mine is not a problem since the turbo is mounted so far away from the heads and manifolds. I run a thermally wrapped pipe into the engine compartment to the turbo, which does not get that hot. Typically when the turbo is mounted to the exhaust manifold, as in a factory set up, the housing absorbs tremendous heat. Remote location of the turbo reduces this. I also have no rain tray on my engine lid. There are thermal covers available for the turbo housing to help reduce heat in the engine compartment if you wanted one.

Type 4's can be easily turbo charged if you have a sound engine to begine with, run realistic boost levels(~6-8 psi), have good oil cooling (meaning a front mounted oil cooler) and proper ignition timing/retard.

In my experience all the "you can't do that" , "the heads will leak", "it'll blow up" "it'll give you acne" etc.. is pure Bullsh#t.

Anything can be done if it is done properly.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Ed

Cracks you up? What a nice guy you are, that pretty much seems like a slap in the face, questioning his reasoning for running it the way he did......

13psi is not the same from motor to motor...nor is it the same location to location............that is a bad assumption to make and could be costly if you tried to duplicate the same boost levels (which it sounds like you are not doing)........he might have been able to run 13psi all the time and the motor crapping out could have been from other reasons (poor carb tuning, bad timing or too advanced timing while under boost)


an accurate compression ratio measurement should be done to know what your baseline static compression is....do you know if the PO had been running flat top pistons, dished, or what his compression is/was???

You say he had the carb dialed in....is this a fact backed with real numbers or just from him saying "yea it runs better now that I've turned this little screw"

Sorry, Ed! I thought that the engine you had at the ECR (you were telling us it had a "bad cam") was a 2.0 that you had built to replace your 1.7 when that got too tired.

I'd still love to hear a good indicator of longevity of a boosted 914 engine! So far, either the motors have been very tired to start with, or people have torn them down for various reasons. I don't know of any so far that has run a long time.

The main point I was trying to make (sorry if I got caught up in it) is that there isn't any basis, positive or negative, to judge how the boosted 914s live in the long-term. Yet.

--DD

Agreed, there are no real data bases for turbocharged type 4's yet.

Based on my experiences and torn down engine inspections, a well designed system and properly built engine should last quite a long time. Boost levels and type of driving will be big factors in longeveity. Considering that a boosted engine will run most of the time off boost, it should age and wear similarly to a n/a engine. If it is a turboed stock type 4, it should age similarly to a stock n/a type 4. Again the levels of boost and rpm ranges will be a factor. Speaking of rpm, you will typically run lower rpm levels with a boosted engine, usually stock or close to stock redlines. Hi rpms cause extreme stresses on engine internals as well as heat.

A turbocharged engine will see less stress in most situations then a big bore or hi rpm engine, so a longer service life can be expected. Time will tell.

Ed

Mike,
I love electronic media (read forums, email)...! No voice inflection or tone is ever transmitted thru the wire. It seems I said something to upset you! As a matter of fact I have talked quite extensively to the previous owner of this system (and still do) and he admitted himself that the high boost was probably the cause of the his motor failure. Since he was running a 2056 cc type IV motor that started life as a stock 2.0, the only difference is him running a slightly different cam, our motor should be very similar. My point was, it cracked me up that he couldn't stop himself from cranking it up, it IS like crack...you want more. As for the carb, he and I talked a lot about the differnt jetting options he tried, case in point he sent a bag full of jets with the system. I guess if thats a slap in the face then there is a whole lot of face slapping going on in this forum. As usual I take everything in these forums with a grain of salt, it is what it is, a place to share information about something that we all have in common...914's.

Ed,
I understand that you are running fuel injection with your Turbo? What type and are you happy with it?

Thanks,
Randy

I am running CIS injection and I love it. CIS is entirely underrated in my opinion.

Check out the link below for info about my 914.

http://community.webshots.com/album/56139700KTKzDo

Ed

long night....I guess I was a little grumpy this morning :)

I would like to know the compressions that people are running to have a good baseline of what is working and how well...

I hope to measure my motor this weekend to get an accurate reading of my static compression and then decide if I'll be running the .06 thk copper gaskets or the .09 gaskets between the head and the cylinders.