Lock all the forums you want...

[BigD9146gt]

... BUT you have to admit that Jake says alot of crap that throughs people for a loop just to make himself look knoledgable. I understand that he's gotta build a business and be a salesmen, but Alfred was just asking a simple question. I've asked Jake several simple questions, and been left with "i don't have time for this, i'm going to go put together my 250hp TIV motor!"

Not everyone has the amazing tools Jake has at his disposal, like a dyno and flow bench. He is doing awesome work with a mass commuter motor that was developed a long time ago, and probably the pioneer for most of the new development today done to the motor. He accidently posted the wrong graphs, which is understandable, but for the whole thread, people just bashed Alfred (wright or wrong), and when Jake did finally answer, he didn't just answer the question, he got into it more than anybody...

Just for the record, I don't keep up with all the bickering, but if Alfred is the little kid taking cheep shots at Jake, Jake should be the grownup in the situation, which from what i've seen, has NEVER been the case!

EDIT: And all of those who pitch in and write about someone being bored with "wife beating" and the such, your no better than the two bickering, more or less adding to the fire...

[Alfred1]

I'll just wait for the dyno graphs of Jake's "Stock Update" and "Stock Replacement" motors after they have been tuned for sea level.

[Jake Raby]

I didn't lock it, nor did I have anything to do with it being locked. I can take plenty of criticism and do all the time because I do share things that create questions..

Show me one more site that publically displays actual dyno graphs from most of the engines that a company offers........

Alfred has been known to question what I say, and I do agree that I boast alot also but thats simply because what we do works, and I have spoent the time and energy to find the deficiencies with these engines and TRY to share my findings to help others. Work 12-16 hour days for 6-7 days a week and when you receive positive results you'll feel the same way if you have enthusiasm about what you accomplish.

I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to keep cars on the road with the Type IV engine. If I piss off a few people along the way thats just part of my job. If i make friends (and I do) thats just a plus. Contrary to popular belief I don't gain many customers from these forums at all because they do not benefit from what I do. They are 90% do it yourselfers that don't want or need what I sell, but they do need the information that I TRY to share!

Before you point fingers look at the person in question and realize he has been banned from two other forums because of his "problems"
and that he is the one that started the last thread. My work, and data was being questioned and I'll die and rot in hell before I will not take up for those two things that I have worked hard to attain and SHARE with those that otherwise would be as lost as Alfred and never built a Type IV engine....

Love me or hate me, but you'll get nothing but the point blank facts from me... If you can't take that, learn how to accomplish selective reading and pass right on by my posts!

[Jason Porter]

If everybody needs a little tension breaker, might I suggest the following:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=179652

[BigD9146gt]

Jason, I got in trouble the other day on that post... its soo long that my boss chewed me out for not doing my work for 2 hours!!!! Those are some MIGHTY FINE PICS!!!

Maybe you've been practicing selective reading a little too much there Jake.... I never said you locked it.

Originally posted by Dave at Pelican Parts....

"Jeez, you guys just can't play nice together, can you?

I'm locking this one, before it gets way out of hand.

--DD"

[Jason Porter]

Originally posted by BigD9146gt
Jason, I got in trouble the other day on that post... its soo long that my boss chewed me out for not doing my work for 2 hours!!!! Those are some MIGHTY FINE PICS!!!

That's why you have to subscribe, and just check out new ones for a minute, and get out of there...Geez, haven't you learned anything?

[BigD9146gt]

Ya, the only problem with that was i always got an email too, once i turned the email option off, i don't get subscribed anymore either

I started "reading" that thread at page 27.... and i have really good eye sight and attention to detail, so it took me almost 2 hours to catch up.

[Jake Raby]

I thought that you were blaming me for having it locked...

Oh well, I'm sorry....

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

BigD, you can blame me all you like for locking the thread, but I've seen far too many threads like that (with the same participants) turn into flame-wars. That post had obviously (to me) headed several steps down that road already, and did not appear to be coming back. And I wasn't going to have that happen here again.

--DD

[Jake Raby]

Dave did what he should have a s a moderator. The post would have went south for sure.

I have an email address and Alfred could have sent me a message before he posted this and it all would have been avoided.

[Alfred1]

Jake, what would happen if you could take a completely stock Euro Spec 2.0L motor that was just as it came off the assembly line and optimized it on your dyno at your elevation and then disassembled the motor and reassembled it by substituting only your best cam for that combo (no special balancing etc.) and then optimized the new combo on your dyno at your elevation. Would you gain 15 hp and not lose any hp and torque anywhere in the rpm range?

[genrex]

I really don't see any point in this. This entire sequence of threads is just an excuse Alfred is using in an attempt to bait Jake. This is quickly getting out of hand, and I would like to see these threads locked. I will be the first to agree that Alfred does on occasion have something valuable to contribute, but I will also agree without hesitation that he has a history of being all too willing to engage in overt and covert personal attacks. And these threads fall into that category.

This charade is a waste of time.

[Alfred1]

genrex, I have some swamp land for sale in Florida if you'd like to buy it.

Jake's 912 with a carbureted 2056 did not get 38 mpg on the highway while travelling "85-90MPH most of the time". How do I know? The EPA told me.

Jake has not "simply made a cam change to a 100% otherwise unaltered engine and made 15HP" while at the same time his "design does NOT lose any HP over any portion of the spectrum! ". How do I know? His own apples to apples dyno graphs:

http://aircooledtechnology.com/type4/914/1970_stocker_update.htm

http://aircooledtechnology.com/type4/914/1970stocker.htm

And when he writes about his lifter testing "spintron": "Welcome to the proving ground folks, this baby is gonna make some enemies for sure- let the games begin", know that he will never say a word about who makes bad lifters.

He hypes himself and his products like a carnival huckster and people keep buying it. You can keep saying it, Jake, but I don't believe it.

[Bleyseng]

I do believe that its possible with cam change to get 10hp with djet motor over a stock cam'd one. The stock cam is so mild and the exhaust is pretty restrictive soo a cam with better lift and duration would help the flow. Probably hurt emissions but so what.
Geoff

[Wayne 962]

Interesting discussions here. While my forte' is with the six cylinders, I can tell you that 15 HP is not a lot of HP, it's probably within or close to error ranges, and it's real difficult to measure this on a single engine.
That said, in the six cylinder world, it's well known that a mild cam will give you lower power. Most of the power increase from the 'S' cam motors comes from the hotter cams (with changes in the heads to help with higher flow). I disagree on the restrictive exhaust - try comparing the 914 exhaust to the 1978-89 911 - now that's restrictive and convoluted.

That said, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Changing lift and duration do often lead to performance hits in other areas, as Alfred indicated. Such low-end power issues are clear with the early 2.0 911 engines. High lift and longer duration lead to lower effective cylinder compression at lower RPMs. However, as I said before, 15HP is not too much, and can probably be achieved through camshaft modification without any impact to the real-world driveability in lower RPM ranges.

On the subject of he said she said, I think that both parties (Alfred and Jake) have personalities that don't mesh very well. Alfred is quick to "question all statements" and Jake is quick to "proclaim the truth." Both can have valid points, questions, and responses (from what I've read). However, the name calling and personal insults should be kept to a minimum, at least on my board.

-Wayne

[BigD9146gt]

Wayne, thanks for the input. But just one thing, 15hp IS alot of HP to us... You 911 boys got 125HP for starters, as you know we only got around 80HP. So the ratio of adding HP to larger motors doesn't feel all that much more, getting a 1.7 to feel like a 2.0 is big times caused for big celebrations! Granted, the torque wont be the same, anyone know what it would be?

[Bleyseng]

I'll have to disagree with you Wayne as the 914 heads with the 90 degree bend for the exhaust kill the flow. 2.0L heads on the intake breath great but still the exhaust side sucks. All the power (hp) gains are gained on improving the exhaust flow with either better cams or larger exhaust valves or porting. Somewhere I have the flow charts to back this up, maybe Jake with step in with some real world numbers and not this desktop dyno bs.
As for Alfred and Jake postings, I think its funny. I have also invited Alfred to attend any of the PNW 914 events but he has been a no show, maybe he thinks I'll kick his ass or something.

Geoff

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Agreed, Don. Adding 15 HP to a stock SC engine (180 HP) and adding 15 HP to a stock 1.8 914 engine (76 HP) are two very different things... A measurement error of 15 HP on a 76 HP engine is big enough that I'd call that particular dyno completely useless.

Boss-man, I think the "restrictive exhaust" being referred to is the actual exhaust port in the cylinder head. Research by quite a few people (including Jake, Len Hoffman over at HAM, and others) has shown that the exhaust port on our heads is quite restrictive, and appears to be the single largest impediment to making power with the Type IV motor. The 2.0 914 heads seem to be better than the rest in this regard (according to Len), but they ain't all that great either.

A good tuned header can help with this to some extent. Reworking the port will obviously make a major difference, but is difficult to do because of the lack of material in that area of the cylinder head. So you can build it up by welding, but that's a whole lotta work. The work that Len is doing with the "square-port" late Vanagon heads sounds very promising--the heads kinda suck when stock, but offer a whole lot more "meat" to work the port shapes. (There was a thread with photos of cross-sections of the various Type IV exhaust ports over on the Shoptalk Forums BBS; very educational!!)

Going with a longer-duration exhaust cam (or higher lift, or both!) can help with this bottleneck, at least to some extent. But as to the effects that would have on the torque curve.... No idea.

--DD

[Alfred1]

Originally posted by Bleyseng


As for Alfred and Jake postings, I think its funny. I have also invited Alfred to attend any of the PNW 914 events but he has been a no show, maybe he thinks I'll kick his ass or something.

Geoff

Wow, Geoff, it never occurred to me that you would want to "kick my ass". You have to be careful with your assumptions because I have no history of getting my ass kicked. And, I use the Engine Analyzer software, not desktop dyno.

I think Jake's own dyno graphs of his "stocker" and "stock update" motors show that what I was saying is true. Gaining 15 hp from a 95 hp motor by just adding a cam with more lift/duration will cost you bottom-end hp and torque.

[Jason Porter]

I still think this is in order:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/show...threadid=179652