major bullitin! bolt-in 4 piston brake upgrade compliments of BMW!

[rich]

I Just tried a set of ATE front calipers off my 1976 2002 parts car on my 1972 914. (late 72 with factory side shift and the late style caliper design I think)The 914 and the 2002 caliper measure the same in all the critical areas. I just bolted them right on and slid a new pair of pads in. The pad width is the same and they line up with the 914 pad marks in the calipers.
NO machining! I still have to deal with the duel lines, but not a big problem.
The front rotors are the same non vented type we have on the 914. the calipers are bolted on the 2002 on the rear side of the rotor. the 914's calipers are bolted in the front side of the caliper.So you use the right BMW caliper on the left of the 914 ect. The calipers are a duel line 4 piston with more pad area than our 914. The master cylinder is power assisted. But so is the BMW 320. With a 19mm master cylinder these brakes be hot!

[Efrain68912]

Do those 914 struts have the 3 inch or 3.5 inch spacing?

[rich]

Well I think I have the late style. I have a friends 914 in my other garage. It has a tail shift transaxle, so I'm shure it's an early 72 or older. I'll check the two cars this week sometime. I spent the weekend moving a mountain of snow with a teaspoon. I managed to open a hole through to the road but I still can't get into one of my garages!
Oh, I was reading through the 320 brake conversion article on this site, the text refers to the pads not lining up with the wear surface. the article states that the pads need to be filed on the top by the pins to keep them from riding over the top of the rotor. The pads for the 2002 calipers ride in the same place as the 914 pads. No grinding needed. I'm not ready to jump up and down and call this a revelation, but I'm pretty close.

I'm looking for input and thoughts on the duel brake lines. The 2002 calipers have 2 lines from the front right and two lines from the left front that run all the way to the master cylinder.
Do you guys think I can just put a "T" in the lines an connect them to the 19mm master cylinder, or should I try to find a master cylinder that will allow me to connect six lines? (4 front 2 rear)

[Speedo959]

I would just put a T in line. I am going to do the same upgrade using volvo twin piston calipers. I have seen this done with just a simple T. I was told that the T adapter off of the bug works pretty good.

[oredith]

check here (at the very bottom)
http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/Forum2/HTML/002701.html

the picture links are gone, i think they got moved when Brad switched servers.. maybe he can find them and put them back up.. ??..

the volvo calipers are WAY TOO MUCH braking power.. i can lock up 245/50R15 SP8000 tires at 80mph if i perform a panic stop.. granted it's mostly due to crappy tire, it is nevertheless TOO MUCH BRAKES.. it's nice because i'll likely -never- overtask it to the point of getting brake fade..

[david.avery]

Awesome RIch... any pictures available? Love to see some

_DMA

Originally posted by rich
I Just tried a set of ATE front calipers off my 1976 2002 parts car on my 1972 914. (late 72 with factory side shift and the late style caliper design I think)The 914 and the 2002 caliper measure the same in all the critical areas. I just bolted them right on and slid a new pair of pads in. The pad width is the same and they line up with the 914 pad marks in the calipers.
NO machining! I still have to deal with the duel lines, but not a big problem.
The front rotors are the same non vented type we have on the 914. the calipers are bolted on the 2002 on the rear side of the rotor. the 914's calipers are bolted in the front side of the caliper.So you use the right BMW caliper on the left of the 914 ect. The calipers are a duel line 4 piston with more pad area than our 914. The master cylinder is power assisted. But so is the BMW 320. With a 19mm master cylinder these brakes be hot!

[JmuRiz]

Jeff,
Are these the pictures you were looking for, maybe just a diff address on them...http://www.all914.com/projects/JeffS/

Nathan

PS: How is that turbo coming, those older pics still look great!

[rich]

I just printed a copy of the Volvo caliper from Jeff's cool turbo page. I matched the picture up to the BMW caliper in my garage. They look different. I'll pop a piston out later and measure it. Any of you guy's a math wiz? It would be interesting to know the difference in volume.It would help in knowing if a 19mm master cyclinder is a good match.

I just re-measured the pads. (pad surface only) The 914 is 61mm long and the BMW is 75mm long. (appox.+ or - 1mm)

Anyone know how long the Volvo pads are? Or the piston size?

Does Pelican sell that VW "T" fitting? I think I bought one from them for the proportioning valve removal. (can't remember)

[oredith]

just a note, i'm not sure if i stated in the previous posts, but the pads and calipers in the picture are comparing volvo 240 turbo calipers vs. the 911 M-calipers, not the 914 stock, nor the BMW calipers.. they are quite a bit larger than stock, as well as vs. the bmw ones..

nice to know brad threw all those pictures in one place.. not sure about including the mug shot though.. :P

oh yeah.. turbo is running at 16.07 psi, and the butt dyno says ~150 to the wheel (also from comparing against my friend's GTI 16V with dyno's 140 to the wheel, and most of the parts taken out of the car, so it's almost similar weight)

[david.avery]

Jeff and Rich,

What wheels do these calipers fit behind? Any chance of them fitting behind a 15*6? (crosses fingers )

Originally posted by oredith
just a note, i'm not sure if i stated in the previous posts, but the pads and calipers in the picture are comparing volvo 240 turbo calipers vs. the 911 M-calipers, not the 914 stock, nor the BMW calipers.. they are quite a bit larger than stock, as well as vs. the bmw ones..

nice to know brad threw all those pictures in one place.. not sure about including the mug shot though.. :P

oh yeah.. turbo is running at 16.07 psi, and the butt dyno says ~150 to the wheel (also from comparing against my friend's GTI 16V with dyno's 140 to the wheel, and most of the parts taken out of the car, so it's almost similar weight)

[oredith]

http://www.all914.com/projects/JeffS/pages/MVC-010S.htm

that's the setup behind 15x7 phonedial rims.. so yes, it definitely fits

[rich]

Jeff, I didn't realize the Volvo caliper in the photo is off a turbo. They look big. I guess I can see what you mean by tooo much braking power.

david.avery, I haven't tried a stock wheel. I am running 125mm wheel spacers behind 15X8 Fuch copies. I'm checking into several fit questions, thats one of them. One thing to contemplate in the meantime, the 2002's come from the factory with 13" wheels. So the calipers are compact. Also BMW guys often upgrade to 320 factory 14" alloys. The fender lips need to be rolled because the 320 wheels stick out more than the 2002 style. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is highly likely they will clear.

I measured the piston in the BMW caliper. It measures 33.95mm or 1.3365".

I also measured the distance from the bolt flange mating surface to the parting line on the caliper half. Both the 914 and the BMW 2002 measure 21mm or .8270. This is a diffecult measurement to get, so this are close appoximate measurements.

Does anyone have an early and late style caliper to measure? I have so much snow in my driveway I can't get into the garage where I have my friends 914.

It is the calipers from the early and late cars that are different, isn't it?

[John Rogers]

It appears the BMW 2002 calipers are a common upgrade for the Alfa Romeo crowd. They also say to use a 22 or 23mm master cylinder since the extra piston volume requires it. There is a machinist that will modify the calipers so they only require one brake line and not the tee or dual inlets. I would be very interested to see what happens to the rotors in a race situation with really heavy braking? Good luck.

[rich]

I've driven my 2002 hard and cornered deep. never a warped rotor or any sense of fade. That's interesting about the 23mm + master cylinder. I would think the Alfa's have a power assist. I wouldn't think you could push the peddle down without the assist. Anyone have any more info?

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

The 914 calipers are different early to late. The change happened with model year 1973. Actually, the change happened very very early in the 73 model year--I know of a couple of 73s with the early non-hub-centric hubs and wheels, which means the early brakes as well.

The mounting plane is different from early to late. I think it's a 1/8" difference, but I'm not sure. What I hear is that the 320 calipers do not require machining for the early struts, while they do for the late struts. (Check the 320 tech article for exactly how much gets taken off.) If this is indeed the case, then the amount of machining called for in the 320 case is the difference between early and late 914 calipers.

--DD

[chibone_914]

Ok Guys, Here goes....

I've done the Volvo Girling 4 piston caliper x-over and here is what you need:

19mm master cylinder

Three VW brake line tees

Four 6mm X 203mm hard brake lines

Four VW bus front shock spacers

Two 4 piston girling calipers (240 series, solid rotor car)

new pads and hardware (for Girling)

You'll need to remove the brake proportioning valve and use a tee in it's place.

Use the brake lines and remaining tees for the front. The spacers will need to be machined down to properly center the caliper over the rotor. (sorry, you'll need to cut and test fit the spacers 1mm at a time for best fit)

Use your original 914 brake caliper bolts (or get new ones)

Put everything together and bleed like crazy. You'll have a little more brake pedal travel, but improvement in stopping is very different from stock.

The calipers fit perfect with original 2 liter Fuchs alloys (sorry, can't tell you if other wheels would work or not)

Pad overhang is minimal (about 1/4") but there is far more pad contact versus the ATE 320i caliper.

Good Luck and I must include that if you choose to embark on this conversion, this information is FYI only. If you crash and burn I nor this forum are not held responsible.

[dakotaewing]

O.K. Guys - I know these are Girlings, but do you guys know the serial # for these calipers in Jeffs pics, or if they are from the front or rears of the 240 Turbo...
GAPA.com has the 240 Turbo rear Girlings fo about $62 a piece... I know they would be cheaper at the local junk yard, its just a matter of spending the time to find them.
Are the 240 Turbo calipers the same as the 240 w/ solid rotors?
Jeff, can give some details regarding your 5 lug conversion using these calipers...? TIA

Thom Ewing
Dallas
74 914 302SBC

[chibone_914]

Hey Thom,

No, they are not turbo calipers. Just plain ol' 4 pot calipers. Just look for a 1975-86 volvo sedan with solid front rotors.

These cars are plentiful in the boneyards, cost me $35 bucks for the pair.

[morgan]

I was just on Ebay and saw an auction for a

"BMW 2002 Tii Brake Caliper Up-Grade-530i 528i"

If a 2002 front caliper fits, do you think this would fit? It looks Huge! The write up says that its a regular size 528i, 530i caliper.

[dakotaewing]

John, Thanks for your quick reply... are you saying that Jeffs calipers and the ones that you have used are one and the same ? i.e. - there is no difference between the solid rotor cars and turbos? On the gapa.com website they show a photo of the ATE replacment calipers and they look as though they are 2 piston...
http://img.eautopartscatalog.com/live/N104020813AFT.JPG


those are rears -oops
no photos of the fronts...

How much larger are the Volvos than the 944 turbo Brembos?

the ACEI fronts are about $58.00 -anybody know anything about these compared to the Girlings ?

I apologize for asking some of the same questions over...

Thom Ewing
74 914 302SBC