No valve clearance after push rod replacement

[frank]

You can skip all the babble an jump straight to the issue marked with ****** below:

After lapping the cylinders to the heads, which BTW was not the nightmare I thought it would be, I am at the point of doing the valve adjustment. A little background first: I removed my drive train for the first time in over 17 years a few months ago and I have been going through it to replace seals, nuts, bolts, and general clean-up. After re-installing I discovered the cylinders / heads were leaking. I think it became more evident after sealing off other exhaust leaks. So, I had to remove the drivetrain again, and again I am in the process of reassembling.

The first time I did the valve adjustment I was not comfortable at all about my work but this time around after having the motor apart and really getting a good look at how things work and fit together I have a much better idea. That stated I have run into a problem...

******

I decided to do one cylinder at a time which at this point means I only have the #3 rockers installed. All the other cylinders do not have their rockers installed. Is this a problem? Should I install the rockers for ALL the cylinders before I get started?

I put my #3 cylinder at TDC using the Flywheel notch as my TDC indicator and then scribed the impeller.

After installing the rockers I realized that I didn't have clearance between the adjusting screw and the valve. I didn't measure them when I removed them so I don't know if the was a problem before removal.

Any help would be much appreciated... I would really like to be driving my car this weekend.

[TargaT]

Make sure the push rod is fully centered in the lifter. I had the same issue and had to play with the pushrod a bit to get it centered in the lifter. It will sit much lower.
Regards, Joe

[TheCabinetmaker]

You may find that your adjustment at the fan's TDC mark is for #1 cylinder TDC not #3 TDC. Remember the engine rotates twice for a complete cycle. (four stroke motor).

I suggest you take a look at the distributor rotor position, at TDC the rotor will be pointing to either #1 or #3 spark plug wire on the cap, rotate the engine 360 degrees and you will find that the rotor is now pointing at a different spark plug wire in the cap.

alternately you can stick a soft wood dowel (like a pencil) in to the spark plug hole of #3, and determine if #3 piston is indeed at top of stroke when fan indicates TDC, if it does not show the piston at top, then rotate the fan 360 degrees and see if #3 piston goes to the top.

remember it takes two rotations of the crank shaft to give one rotation of the cam, and distributor. you have to pick the correct TDC in order to adjust the valves. By only relying on the fans TDC mark, you have a 50-50 chance of hitting the correct location of valve adjustment, that TDC mark is the same for both #1 and #3 TDC.
for #2 and #4 TDC the fan mark is not factory included, but will be 180 degrees from the #1 and #3 TDC fan mark.


I am not sure what you mean by lapping cylinders to the head, do you mean valves lapped to the head?

[frank]

So I got this sinking feeling in my gut after reading through several horror stories about sunken valve seats and broken valves.

I just couldn't believe I had been driving my car this way and recalled that the first time I pulled the motor about 3 months ago I didn't have this issue and I only ran it for about 10 minutes before pulling the motor again.
I used a long screwdriver to nudge the exhaust push rod of the #1 cylinder and it popped into place. I would have sworn up and down that I had the push rods seated perfectly before trying that. They were straight from the rocker to the lifter and I had confirmed with a flashlight. I then torqued the nuts and did the valve adjustment for all cylinders.

I was not comfortable with my valve adjustment work the first time a couple month's ago but having gone through the motor a second time I learned a lot about TDC and valve adjustments. I am very confident about my work this time around.

Although I read that the #1 and #3 valves have the same TDC and can be adjusted at the same time I did not find that to be perfectly true for my motor. The same was true for #s 2 and 4.

My impeller had 2 notches but neither was TDC. One appeared to have been colored red at one point and I don't recall if I had painted it the last time I did the timing over 6 years ago. I found TDC for the #1 piston and filed a notch. I also put a notch in 180 degrees from that for my #2 & #4 TDC's. I painted my new TDC notch White, repainted the Red one, and the uncolored one I painted Yellow. I painted my new #2 / #4 TDC notch with a wide band of Silver. I did this because I thought I might confuse a dirtied white #1 TDC with a silver #2 TDC.





Thanks Joe and Cabinetmaker for your inputs.

Lapping cylinders to the heads and case is exactly that. I removed the cylinders and used fine valve lapping compound to grind the surfaces to be perfectly matched to eachother. I did not use gaskets as per the service bulletin and all the fine advice on various boards. I had leaks previously which is why I had to pull the motor a second time. The cylinders are perfectly sealed now against the heads and case.

Before re-installing the motor the first time I also filed the tops of the heat-exchangers to be perfectly flat and level to each-other as well as the flanges on the other ends and the flanges on the muffler. At that point I think that my exhaust leaks at the cylinders became more serious and evident as there was now only the cylinders for exhaust to leak... but now those leaks are closed off too.

I am now ready to reinstall the motor, tune the carbs, do an oil-change, transaxle flud (Swepco) change, install the brake pads... seems like a lot but not compared to all I have done so far... I think I will get this all done today and have my car on the road in time for a party that starts at 4 pm this afternoon... maybe it's wishful thinking.

[Kirmizi]

Just some opinions, so take them with an appropriate grain of salt...
I think placing more marks on your fan is going to complicate an already simple procedure.
Rotate until TDC and watch the rotor, it gets you close enough to observe the valve train and verify when both valves are closed.
Secondly, many people would suggest using a dino fluid vs Swepco in your transaxle.

[frank]

Points well taken. However the only mark that is truly new is the #2 & #4 TDC. My TDC was missing altogether.

I thought most people went with Swepco. I will certainly consider dino fluid next time I am in the transaxle. I also have a rebuilt transaxle waiting in the wings. Maybe I will use dino fluid in that one. Any recommendations on dino fluid?

Thanks for your input Kirmizi.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

I think there was some confusion about the #1/#3 thing.

The crank (and therefore the fan) turns twice for every one rotation of the cam. So when the "TDC" mark is at the top, you can either have #1 or #3 at TDC, ready to be adjusted. Not both at the same time. And #2/#4 are similar.

I recommend Swepco, as it has been recommended to me by several pro mechanics that I trust. (Pelican also sells it.) However, there are others like Dr. Evil (noted 914 transmission rebuilder) who say that cheap dino oil is just as good or maybe better--and that it should be replaced every couple of years no matter what.

--DD

[John Rogers]

When I had the four cylinder engines in my 914, the marks on the fan were used only for timing, nothing else and that was after the fan was checked and marked with a degree wheel. The way our mechanic and myself (he taught me) to do valve adjustments was as per the factory manual. All push rods, lifters (lots of cam lube), rockers, etc were all installed. The spark plugs were all removed and a dowel rod was inserted in the plug hole and then the engine was turned by hand to have #1 intake open and close and watch the dowel to see when it stopped moving out. There is a bit of crank movement so no panic is needed when getting to TDC and never back the engine up if you go past TDC. The cam shafts in my engines were not stock so each cylinder was done in order with the appropriate piston at TDC with the intake just closed. In the article on the Pelican site here there are some different ways to do it but no matter what we always measured TDC with the dowel, just make sure to remove them and make sure they are long enough to NOT fall into the engine.

[frank]

John, I used a hybrid of all the methods I thought made sense. The paint brush handle I used for painting on Curil T was my dowel. I turned the impeller clockwise until I felt TDC. If I passed TDC I went around again twice. I wiggled the rockers and confirmed that they were the most lose when the dowel (paint brush handle) was at it's highest. This and the notch in the flywheel helped my final8ze my TDC mark. I experemented many times before coming to this final approach.

For those who attempt this method: ensure your dowel is long enough to not fall in the spark plug hole as John mentioned and make sure you guide the dowel so the piston does not catch it and break off inside.

[TheCabinetmaker]

Redline synthetic tranny lube I have found superior to dino lube such as Stalube. The claim that cheap dino lube is good as or better than synthetic should be noted as baloney, as is the need for changing out dino lube every couple years regardless of usage, as that is a waste of money, it can last many many many years in the transmission. It don't just go bad in a couple years. Base your lube change on usage, it will save you a lot of money and time, and it is better for the environment.

Changing to Redline resulted in smoother shifting in all conditions in several of my cars, but most so in cold conditions. Besure to select the correct product for a transaxle, verses a plain transmission. you need the product that works will with our syncros and differential.

I have had poor shifting trannys with fresh clean dino oil in them, then changed to Redline synthetic and the shifting became like new. It was like a mechanic in a can, saved me from needing a new tranny, and has lasted over 80K miles and counting. I have not tried Swepco lube, I'm sold on Redline

A hint on the fan.... paint the entire fan blade to mark the timing marks, you will appreciate a big colored fan blade once the motor is installed and once the fan gets dirty. A big colored blade is much more easy to find that a tiny mark painted near the scribe marks on the edge of the fan.
Every engine I put together gets the entire blade painted, makes timing and valve adjust so much more easy as you can find the mark in low light and you don't need to crane you head in an awkward position to get an initial sighting of the marks.

I agree with john rogers that you should adjust the valves one cylinder at a time, simply get to that cylinders TDC so both the valves are closed, then adjust as needed, then rotate the crank 180 degrees to the next TDC and adjust, do this for each cylinder in firing order as the crank is rotated.

One trick to help seal the headers to the head is to make sure the copper gasket is fully softened (annealed) this can be done by heating on stove top till it glows red, then allow to slowly air cool, it will become annealed and be softer to allow it to best conform to the surfaces it needs to seal. An annealed washer will make thud noise when dropped on a concrete floor, one that is not annealed will ring like a bell when it hits the floor. The hard washer will also bounce much further than a soft one. use lots of antiseize on the header nuts and studs, and use a self locking high temp nut, no nylocks, no lockwashers as the heat will destroy the function of these locking devices. special nuts with 12 mm hex heads will allow the use of the smaller 12 mmm socket, which can give you more room to work than when using the more common 13 mm hex head nuts.

One more valve adjust hint, as you do the periodic adjustment, record the before and after clearance readings in your logbook, this will help in finding drifting valves, which can mean you got a falling valve seat. If you find that one particular valve is always coming up with for example the need for an increase in clearance every time you adjust, (whilest the other valves randomly come up a little tight then a little loose etc...) then that valve is suspect for failure. You can easily recognize this if you record the before and after valves for review later.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

I was chewed up one side and down the other by one mechanic for using Redline MTL in my 914's transmission. Considering he was doing a rebuild at the time, and there were parts he was replacing that he never had to replace before, I have followed his recommendation. (Spider gears? How do those get damaged??)

--DD

[TheCabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by Dave at Pelican Parts

I was chewed up one side and down the other by one mechanic for using Redline MTL in my 914's transmission. Considering he was doing a rebuild at the time, and there were parts he was replacing that he never had to replace before, I have followed his recommendation. (Spider gears? How do those get damaged??)

--DD

I have rebuilt tranny's with failed diffs, busted main shafts that ran dino lube, kind of unusual failures, not typical wear, should I blame the dino lube for that?

Redline did wonders in improving shifting and has worked well for a long long time in many tranny's of me and my friends.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

All I can tell you is that my mechanic had bad experiences with Redline MTL. And mine was just one more in that collection. I'll give you his phone number if you want to argue with him.

--DD

[frank]

I don't know enough about oils to make authoratative statements. I still do subscribe to using ANY oil that meets or exceeds the car's specs and that is kept clean regardless if that means it is changed every year or two as a matter of course or if it is inspected and changed out only when it has fallen below the standard.

That stated I can attest to the benefits of Swepco. I don't remember what was in my transaxle when I bought it but there was a significant improvement in the quality of my shifting even with shattered bushings and a loose cable when I switched to Swepco.

Still I am open to other oils.

This thread has been a good exchange of info.

[TheCabinetmaker]

Originally Posted by Dave at Pelican Parts

All I can tell you is that my mechanic had bad experiences with Redline MTL. And mine was just one more in that collection. I'll give you his phone number if you want to argue with him.

--DD

Oh my, I missed the part about you using the MTL product at first glance. No need to argue with your mechanic.

If you used the Redline MTL product, that could be the cause of the problems, as the MTL product is NOT recommended for our 914 tranny's. You can call Redline and ask, or use their website based lube calculator based on year, make and model of car.

The correct product is Redline 75w90 NS . The MTL is the wrong stuff to use in our 914's. Pelican sells the correct stuff, Redline 75w90 NS.



The correct Redline product is good stuff, and your mechanic is right about MTL not being suitable for the 914.