Wheel Stud/Lug nut question

BryanC · 10-12-2002, 12:07 AM

I have a 914 with aftermarket wheels that are mag wheel type (i.e. they just have a hole in them, no taper). When I got the car it had two different types of wheel bolts/studs. The 'better' type is a single piece shoulder bolt. The 'worse' type is a screw in stud with a 'shoulder nut' (for lack of a better term).

The attached picture shows the two different kinds.

Today I tried to buy new tires for the car and Discount tire refused to touch the front wheels (the ones with the stud/shoulder nut on them) because they claim this is unsafe. They say that the studs 'float' between the nut and the threads on the brake disk. I've never had this problem since they are two separate threads (one English one metric).

So, my questions are:

1) are they unsafe? I've got 8 of the bolts on the back wheels and can't seem to find any more. They are on the back because I've read on this forum that the studs don't bite well on the back.

2) Does anyone know where I can get more of the bolts? I can't use the standard 914 alloy bolt.

BryanC · 10-12-2002, 12:10 AM

I thought I'd add a picture of the wheels.....

These are the back wheels with the bolts.

6 Shooter · 10-12-2002, 12:08 PM

Hey, I haven't seen any of those wheels in a long time! We used to call those pop-tops or can openers. Why not just install some screw-in studs, loc-tite them (or get some nickel rod and tack them from the inside of the hub) , and get some regular shoulder-type lug nuts? Make sure that the shoulder length with the washer is not longer than the thickness of the wheel hub (you don't want the lugnuts to bottom out on the hub).

BryanC · 10-12-2002, 04:00 PM

I can't permanently attach the studs sinceI need to take the wheels off regularly to put my track wheels on (Mahle). They have standard bolts.

6 Shooter · 10-13-2002, 02:42 AM

BryanC,
Can your Mahle track wheels use the same lug nuts as the 5 lug Fuchs/Mahle wheels? Then you can use either the alloy lug nuts or the steel open lug nuts. (Don't use your metric to standard thread stud.)

John2kx · John2kx's Garage

Bryan,

I've got a full set of lugs used to secure those wheels. Don't need them any longer since I'm going 5 lug. Maybe we can trade something of equal value.

John

URY914 · URY914's Garage

I had those same wheels on my 914 for years. About every 6 months I'd twist off one of those soft cheap bolts. Try a VW wheel supplier that advertise in Hot VW or VW Trends mags. They'll have them. And those stud inserts are best left on the shelf.

6 Shooter · 10-14-2002, 01:45 PM

Ury914,
There are different quality studs available. When you twisted your lugs off, was it when you were tightening or loosening the lugnuts? Was it by hand or with an impact gun? If you were tightening them, did you use a torque wrench? If you were tightening them with an impact gun, do you set it to a lower setting and finish tightening them with a torque wrench?
I've used/installed studs/lugs in some of my cars since 1978 and have never had a problem. I got rid of the factory lugbolts in a '56 VW convert ('78,daily driver) with both the original splitcase and later a '67 trans and a '65 Ghia (in '82,daily driver). In 1990, I had the bolt pattern changed from a 5" to 4 3/4" bolt circle and installed studs and American Racing Torque Thrusts (15x6 straight spokes) on a '39 Pontiac Sport Coupe (gasser look, 327, fender-well headers, 4-spd, daily driver) , drove it everyday, including several trips @ to Pleasanton (Goodguys W. Coast Nats) and Merced (Goodguys) , Reno for Hot August Nights ('93, 10 hrs drive @ way), several Bakersfield (NSRA Western Nats), and to Temecula (Mid Winter Run). In 1994, I had the B.C. changed from 5 1/2" to 4 3/4" and installed studs and Americans (15x7 T70s) on a '40 Ford pick up ( small block, T400, daily driver) and drove/drive it everywhere (Pleasanton, Bakersfield, Hemet), too.
I'm not doubting that you had trouble, but I've put some miles on
my cars and have not ever broken off a lug/stud. On the VWs where I had used Loc-tite (for stud installation), I've had the lug/stud come off when I removed a lugnut but just cleaned the threads on the drum with brake cleaner and reinstalled/reused the stud with more Loc-tite (there was no thread damage on the drum or screw-in stud). You may not be able to avoid "made in Taiwan' lugnuts (there alot of street rod/muscle cars running them without any problems that I'm aware of) but it is possible to find quality screw-in stud/lug stock/material. Maybe the LUGBOLTS that you used were the problem if you broke them every 6 months, using a torque wrench to finish tightening tnem to factory spec.

URY914 · URY914's Garage

BACK OFF 6SHOOT!!!
Don't take it so f***ing personal. If you haven't had trouble with your bolts or inserts, count yourself lucky and go about your day. I really didn't need a complete history including car, year and highlights of your lug nut adventures. The original post asked questions about the same wheels I had, so I replied. I once failed a tech inspection at a DE because of the cheap stud inserts so there must be a reason not to use them.

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

I recommend picking up some "steel wheel lug bolts" for your front wheels. The PO used the screw-in studs on my old 1.8, and I was not at all happy with them. They were not long enough for the alloy wheels, for one, and one of them pulled out of the hub in front. Yuck. While torquing the nut on, with a torque wrench.

I think that Beetle lug bolts will work OK. If you want the "real thing" from a 914, the part number to look for is 281.601.139 ,

--DD

BryanC · 10-14-2002, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by URY914
I had those same wheels on my 914 for years. About every 6 months I'd twist off one of those soft cheap bolts. Try a VW wheel supplier that advertise in Hot VW or VW Trends mags. They'll have them. And those stud inserts are best left on the shelf.

I've found that there are cheap studs out there. Cheap nuts too. I bought a full set (16) a long time ago and broke 2 studs and 1 nut just installing them for the first time. Switched to a different brand (i.e. from a different bug shop) and haven't had that problem.

BryanC · 10-14-2002, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 6 Shooter
BryanC,
Can your Mahle track wheels use the same lug nuts as the 5 lug Fuchs/Mahle wheels? Then you can use either the alloy lug nuts or the steel open lug nuts. (Don't use your metric to standard thread stud.)

I don't quite understand.... my Mahle wheels are a 914 4 bolt wheel. They use the same holes that the studs go on.

URY914 · URY914's Garage

I saw that too, Bryan but didn't want to say anything. Something is wrong there. But I've made my reply...

BryanC · 10-14-2002, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave at Pelican Parts
I recommend picking up some "steel wheel lug bolts" for your front wheels. The PO used the screw-in studs on my old 1.8, and I was not at all happy with them. They were not long enough for the alloy wheels, for one, and one of them pulled out of the hub in front. Yuck. While torquing the nut on, with a torque wrench.

I think that Beetle lug bolts will work OK. If you want the "real thing" from a 914, the part number to look for is 281.601.139 ,

--DD

by "real thing" do you mean the ball-seat lug bolts? They won't work on these wheels.

URY914 · URY914's Garage

Bryan,
You're right. The seat must be flat with a washer to work on those wheels. Like I said before, I've been there.

Dave at Pelican Parts · Dave at Pelican Parts's Garage

I mean the actual lug bolts that VW/Porsche installed on 914s that had steel wheels. They are shorter than the ones used on 914s with alloy wheels.

--DD

URY914 · URY914's Garage

The stock steel wheel bolts won't work. Too short and the seat is not flat. The mounting plate or surface of those wheels is thick so you need a longer than stock bolt.

6 Shooter · 10-15-2002, 02:16 PM

URY 914,
Oh... I didn't know that you failed a tech inspection. You hadn't mentioned that.... From your post, I thought that you were regularly twisting off your lugbolts every 6 months as a regular thing. SORRY. I wouldn't have replied/questioned a tech insp. failure. When you suggested leaving the stud inserts on the shelf, I thought that maybe you had a bad experience with cheap material quality or that possibly you might be overtightening/stretching your lugbolts. I only listed my personal experience because I didn't know the reason behind your "shelf" recommendation. You didn't/don't know me. For all you know, maybe I'm the one trying to fit the square peg in the round hole. Or you're trying.... (I'd put one of those winking/smiley deals here if I knew how.) Nothing personal, you know. Ha!
Bryan,
If you were to install the M14x1.5 studs, you could use a set of the shoulder w/ flat washer lugnuts for the aftermarket wheels and use a second set of standard 5-lug Porsche (Fuchs/Mahle) lugnuts for your Mahle track wheels (if the ball-type centering lugnut matches the wheel).
Ury914,
I realize now why the tech inspec would fail screw-in studs. If they weren't tacked/welded from inside the hub, it's possible that they could back out/unscrew from the hub threads. Not a problem with press-in studs. Sound good??