HAUSBRAUEN SUPERCHARGER

[Eldorado]

you sound like you're on the right track, x3....and thanks for not taking out words as insults to your thought process.

and tifo, all i was trying to say is that all the info is there.. you've just gotta look rather hard for it, which makes it difficult..

[Eldorado]

well if you need any help, i'm sure you might be able to recruit a volunteer or two from this forum.

and i dont think it would be against any forum rules to post things you're planning on selling. It is, in the end, a 'technical' topic.
in the end, when you have whatever kits you have available done, just make sure you put it in the classifieds thread and i dont think Z would have a problem with it.

[Eldorado]

no need to delete it.
just post a link to the new thread once done so that future searches are made easier

and dont refrain from posting on our account.. post away! we dont want to silence you. Just be clear and consise when you're posting and I'm sure you'll get much more feedback

[Porsche-O-Phile]

This is confusing as hell to follow, although it sounds like you're onto something. To echo what's been said, could you please post some pictures of an installed setup and list exactly what comes with your "kits", performance/dyno data if available and any supporting information that would add credibility to your product offering?

No offense, but although I'm interested in this conceptually, I seriously doubt I'd buy a product from someone that's so hard to follow/understand. I'd be afraid that you forgot a few bolts or something and it would be liable to explode at first use - know what I mean?

Also, what kind of long-term data (if any) do you have indicating the reliability of these things over time?

[x3m944]

Jeff, you are not the first person to want long term data.

I have tested the units at length and the bearings are high grade and rated for more load and more hours than a unit would see on a car in many years. They are an easy to service part, even more so in the External Drive models.

Talk to me in a few years, or whatever you consider the long term mark.

Till then you have to wait. I have tested the unit, sent it to others for testing, including a expert in the field.

I do have a customer documenting the complete install on his 944 and another on a 924S all of which I will put on my website when complete. I will do a full documentation on my car as well.

Third party data is always better than personal claims, even pictures.

[kcryan]

Well, after reading this thread and being throughly confused up until now (now im just partially confused) i think i can add a few things, and ask a few things.

First off, just in response to the leave out a few bolts comment, this is exactly the type of person i WOULD want to buy mechanical parts from, anyone who is an english scholar isnt usually the best mechanical type of person (although im sure there are many exceptions). This guy seems to know his stuff.

Now a few questions, these were probally all covered earlier, and i missed them cause i suck at reading so bear with me...

-For $895 what exactly do i get, then from there what options do i get and how much are they?
-is this for sale today?
-when will the mounts be avaible?(rough guess)
-How is this thing oiled (do i have to hook it up to my cars oil or does it use its own?
-also going along with that, what exaclty do i need to do to install?
-you mentioned a deal for early subscribers here, being the cheapskate i am can u give me any more info on this? PM is fine here if u prefer.
-Where are you located out of curiosity?
-Do you offer any type of warranty?

Thanks, and what is your website, i know that must have been posted but i missed it somehow

Thanks again

[kuehl]

x3m944,
After working on a like project for a year, I can understand where you are coming from. However, what the audience, I think, wants to know is:
A) If you have a "complete, bolt-on don't have to go to HomeDeposit to get a bolt, it's been tested, you have MTBF data,"
kit, redundantly state what it has in a list (in one post) and what is does not have, what the reader needs to buy otherwise if anything for a safe "X" psi boost, and if you have aready run the unit for XXX hours on the non-turbo engine versions and how well did the engine hold up!
B) The "average" reader (and I don't mean to insult anyone) is not aware of what happens when your "boost".
C) Have you determined the differences, if any;>), in a non-turbo vs a turbo engine .... before you bolt the puppy on and let er rip?
D) Take all your previous posts, paste them in your favorite word processor and come up with a pre-liminary presentation and send it off the writer up in CT.

Good luck

[kcryan]

Ohh and one more, with a relatively low boost (im overprotective of my engine) what kinda Horsepower or Torque would you expect, just ballpark it if you can (an 85 N/A)

Thanks again

[x3m944]

Kuehl - MTBF Data, yes I have it - for the anyone that doesn't understand what that is : Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF).

To be honest I have to force it to fail. I ran one unit at 80k (it was rated for 60k) for 27 hours before it failed, bearing failure. I replaced the bearings and ressumed operation. No shaft damage, no compressor wheel issues. I did stop as soon as it began to seize, I did not run it till it imploded. Guess how much boost I was making at that level, hahaha.

Moving on:
I am aditing the post, so you might want to go back to the begining and scan along. Tossing in some early dyno data.

I will post additional response and answer current batch of questions till then go to my website for additional information.

Website I will supply is my Blog, has dynos and details and pics, etc... I am working on updating it. I have been busy building units.
http://hausbrauen.blogspot.com/

I have a commercial website, but thats under construction.

You can read through the information over their.

It will answer quite a few questions.

I will prepare a proper response here in a few minutes.

Also look on page one the post that talks about boosting a S2, has a set of skulls at top "hear no, see no, speak no evil" It shows an example of a package and what would or could be included.

[kcryan]

Wow man, thanks for the speedy response, im impressed, and i cant wait for the response...

Thanks again

[kcryan]

One more while im at it, whats the advantage/disadvantage of a Direct Drive vs a counter shaft?

[x3m944]

You just want to keep me posting all night...

Direct Drive would allow a low boost configuration or using an existing pulley configuration to drive the supercharger.

Countershaft introduces a ratio.

For example:

Ratio from Crank to Counter Shaft(CS) 2:1
Ratio from CS to SC primary 2:1
Ratio from SC primary to drive shaft 2:1

Result (2x2)x2 = 8:1 final drive

So at 5k engine RPM - your SC is spinning at 40K

Depending on Compressor wheel thats typically good for atleast 8 PSI, most of my units that would be coming up on 12 PSI. Even on a lower effeciency unit:





A Little of the science:
I can increase effeciency by increasing the ratio between the compressor wheel's inducer and exducer (minor and major)diamters, this also modifies max CFM. So the wheel can be modified to fit and application and still supply the PSI desired.

Now:
Need more boost change the ratios, need less, change the ratios.

Keep in mind that a Centrifugal SC makes boost similar to any turbo, its belt driven not exhaust driven, but other wise they both spool up.

Difference with the SC, you are not depending on exhaust pressure and velocity, you are building boost directly related to engine RPM.

That means Boost climbs through the RPM range till it reaches its max rpm.

I build/design the SC to the application based on your Redline, if you post the engine past redline, you could make more boost becuase as engine RPM increases so does compressor RPM.

Dont get hung up on the direct drive "name" it doesnt get driven off the crank directly or something like that. It just doenst come with a counter shaft on the plate. Allowing more unique configurations and less overal speed.

Beauty of a Centrifugal SC --- cant really over boost, long as MAX boost is a product of max rpm.

You can however use say a 12 PSI Max unit and dump excess pressure above a give limit - think dump valve or waste gate in principal and operation.

Why do that? Simple - you can get more boost faster/sooner in the RPM range and then hold that boost level across the rest of the rpm range.

This is the part where tayloring it to your needs comes in. You tell me what you want and when I will tell you whats possible and for how much.

In my eventual BOOST 101 thread I will get into max boost, differences in operation and yield from various SC and Turbo systems.

[kcryan]

Thanks man, i am quite interested, but wont be doing anything until spring or summer, but i will defiently keep in contact, and from now unil then i hope to become a S/C expert so i can understand this

[Eldorado]

I haven't gone back to read the first page again yet, but do you have any esitmates on what a basic 6psi will do to things like:

horsepower?

added stress on the drivetrain? (if i can blow up my transmission by launching it one too many times, what would a forced induction system do to an n/a?

brakes?

[x3m944]

Well if you go look at the Dyno sheets, you will see a few runs on a non-stock 944. Not mine a friends.

But figure this that car had a 154 HP on tap and yielded around 228 on up to 240.

On say a car with 125HP at the wheels expect a minimum increase of about 40% to 50% @ 5 PSI, properly tuned you should see slightly more. This assumes a minimum gain of 8% or 10% per PSI.

128 HP @ the wheels + 40% = 179.2 RWHP
128 HP @ the wheels + 50% = 192.0 RWHP

LOW SIDE ESTIMATE: 51 HP GAIN @ 5 PSI

If you want to look at Flywheel HP lets assume the factory rating is slighty off do to the age and state of tune of your car.

155 HP + 40% = 217.0 HP
155 HP + 50% = 232.5 HP

Drive line loss is debateable Lets assume 20% Driveline loss.

217.0 - 20%= 173.6 RWHP
232.5 - 20%= 186.0 RWHP

If you run at 6 PSI, which is what the unit would be rated at, well then do the math 48% or 60%

COST PER HP:

Assuming you spend say 1200 for 51 HP
1200 for a unit and misc support ware to make it work (making a bracket, fuel, igntion, whatever you source or buy from me)

That is $23.51 per HP gained on the low side.

MORE NET HP and the price drops. Spend less and the price per HP gained drops.

When Calculating Power gains a lot of variables must be calculated.

As such I have a lot of formula and calculations and how to calculate all this including accounting for delat rise, etc on the website.

Some people will say that you can expect 10 HP per PSI, but thats usually less than actual in practice.

Lets talk Lower boost for a moment.

Lets say get a 6 or 8 PSI unit and then dump everything over 3 PSI, to be safe, then later you can increase HP as you go.

@ 3 PSI take the engines HP and add 24-30%, closer to 30%. Boost is funny, you have to allow or account for Delta/heat rise at lower boost levels you will see less heat, as such you can tune for more power do to the cooler and there for denser air.

@ 3 PSI
128 HP + 24% = 163.8 RWHP
128 HP + 30% = 166.4 RWHP

LOW SIDE ESTIMATE: 35 HP GAIN @ 3 PSI, not a lot, but again you are being safe.

128 HP is typical RWHP on a 944 NA, dyno after dyno shows 125HP-131 HP with 128 HP being typical on stock NA cars. Chipped, tuned, etc.. more Base HP.

More base HP before boost means more HP after Boost.

I will get into the driveline and brake discussion briefly, but remember I ran my car on boost for years without any issues till finally I grenaded the clutch. I drive like I stole the car, all the time.

Anyway I will get into it, but you have to wait till I get back from church. So say 2 Hours. See ya then. Remember more formula and specs are on the website. You can also post questions and comments over their.

[x3m944]

Eldorado, Oh and please look over the thread, waiting to hear what you and tifo have to say about the revisions or anyone else, want to hear if It is clearer and flows better.

[kuehl]

x3m944,
Sounds like you have an interesting idea, however

"MTBF Data, yes I have it - for the anyone that doesn't understand what that is : Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF).

To be honest I have to force it to fail. I ran one unit at 80k (it was rated for 60k) for 27 hours before it failed, bearing failure. I replaced the bearings and ressumed operation. No shaft damage, no compressor wheel issues. I did stop as soon as it began to seize, I did not run it till it imploded. Guess how much boost I was making at that level, hahaha.

I don't feel that you are approaching the reliability issue on the right road. First you need to know what are the annual hours the owner puts on the engine. Then you have to run it for a given multiple, say xxx hours (x) x years (typically the warranty period if you offer one). Then run the unit at it's rated 60k until it fails. From there you have to determine what the mode of failure was and if you are going to take a selection of units, say 10 units or 100 units, and run them for the same time period and correlate your data.

Also, the test should be "real life", meaning time, temperature, altititude and humidity. Obvious this gets to be costly however I think the temperature is most critical (running the unit at "under the hood" temperature).

One other thought. You seem to me attempting to market a hybrid "unit only" and offering options.... That is a tuff-nut for the average user here on the forum. I think you will probably want to dream up a "turn-key" kit that has everything for a complete-bolt-on-solution. Just a thought.

[CJFusco]

West, so you are basically saying that a ready-to-install supercharger kit will be available shortly for about $900? That you recommend some things (blowoff valve, etc), but the 6psi kit can stand alone at that price?

[vnarma]

I've followed the thread for a while. Your answers tend to provide interesting engineering information, but fails to answer the basic question for most people.

When will you have a "finished" product, which will install in the 924s/944 series? The supercharger itself is only a paperweight to most without the mount and assorted required components. The supercharger itself, can be purchased from the standard manaufacturers, like Eaton, Procharger, Whipple, etc, who are already in the business of building/designing Superchargers. What they don't do, which folks on the board are looking for, is provide a way to intregrate a Raw supercharger into a system that works on our cars. Anything else is a practical waste, as you, unfortunately, don't have the critical mass to support the mass creation of a new raw supercharger. Sorry, but it a basic fact of reality.

Myself, and most other are looking for something like this fellow did for his 944.
944 Supercharger

So to that end. Are you building the system, or just offering yet another raw supercharger intended to compete with the major manufacturer, which have millions to invest in RD and manufacturing capabilities?

[tifosiman]

Originally posted by x3m944
Frankly claiming that I would leave out a few bolts...

No offense, but do you leave the house without your pants? Maybe walk around with your fly open, or forget to breath frequently? Miss your mouth when eating ? Leave food on your face? Cant pour water out of a boot with the instructions on the heal? That what you’re saying to me with comments like yours. Mine are not a retort/attack...No I am not upset, but gessh come on.

Making these, boosting engines, yea same as breathing for me.

I don't leave out things- comments like that are why I stay away from this subject for weeks at a time. Frankly that sounds like a veiled insult, or subtle attempt at subversion.

You don’t understand me so I become and absent minded a careless fool. Yea that makes sense to me… A+"Z"=C could you get more abstract in your reasoning. ok yea sure.

I have my flaws, but that is not any one of them.

Maybe its the idea that my posts are all geared at selling this stuff. Well they are not. Maybe if i said... hey look what I can do... yea that it. I will relabel this thread.

As I pointed out, this isn’t all about selling superchargers, I am not trying to convince people to buy them. I am trying to convince people that you can boost the 944 NA. That it will stand up to it, that it can be affordable.

I own several of these cars, I did this to give something to the community and because I decided it was the least expensive of all the kits I could produce turbo vs. supercharger.

No offense intended, but you probably just lost a few possible customers with a response like that.

Additionally, the hp#'s that you are bantering about will destroy the 944 N/A trans. You need to take that into account and appraise your potential DIY customers of that issue.

For $895 for a bare super charger, with no mounts, engine managment, etc, is not really going to attract anyone. At $2K, if it is complete, you may get people interested but even still you need to clean things up as far as your posts go and make it desirable for someone to plunk down their hard-earned cash. Keep in mind that 944 owners are notoriously cheap bastards and are hard-pressed to part with any large chunk of change like that, even if they have it available (many do not). Add in the price of the 951/S2/ trans that is needed, and you are fast-approaching $3K. More if somone has to pay a mech to do any of the work. Add even more if they go with the 968 trans.

Food for thought. Keep fighting the good fight.