The Future of the 944...

[AFJuvat]

First off. let me state that I am not trying to start a flame war, and am certainly not trying to be a 911 elitist. (for those of you who don't know, I have one of each)

My other post got me to thinking this evening about the future of 944s, and asked myself what the hell is wrong with 944 owners lately

Obviously, I am excluding those here that meticulously maintain their vehicles. Overall, sadly, I am convinced that we represent a very small minority of the owners

Does the 944 have much of a future left?

Let me cite some examples from the last two weeks.

1 1988 951. Owner wants the exhaust leak fixed and the belts done. Belts get done, front end seals are leaking, water pump bearing is in its death throes - replace. Previous repair shop broke bottom waterpump bolt, neglected to remove it. drill and timecert. Exhaust leak is a result of DIY repair - head was removed previously, exhaust studs broken, drilled out and tapped, studs too long and bent, nylocks used to fasten headers to head.....
Bill: $1900 with tax, needs another $5K to fix everything on the car

2. 1988 Turbo S: Yes, a real turbo S, silver rose metallic, plaid interior, the works. AC is not working, someone had converted the system to R-134. We refuse to work on converted systems. Owner agrees to convert back. Compresor, clutch, expansion valve are shot. Replace all of them, recharge with R-12. Owner refuses to have leaking power steering rack and lines replaced. Oil pan gasket actually has a hole in it. Front seals are questionable. Car is currently on its way to Hershey PA for the Porsche parade.

3. 1987 951: see my post called "Guilty Mechanic" for this one.

4. Today, person calls up asking for tips about buying a 944. found one about 30 miles north, only $1800! Car is owned by a mechanic, but does not run, mechanic cannot get car to run. Condition of belts, AC, clutch, differential is unknown. Do my utmost to convince person that his money would be much better spent on a used hyundai based upon what he is telling me. He makes appointment for next week to give the car a tune up after he buys it. I initiate a conversation with the wall - get about the same response.

I realize that I could just be having a bad week and all, but I am seeing more and more 944\951 coming into the shop that could charitably described as "cockroaches", that have me fix the absolute minimum to get eh car back on teh road and then come in screaming two weeks later that the car still has problems.

Example conversations:

Customer: "you changed my belts and my seals last month, the car is still leaking!"

Me: Yes, the car is still leaking, do you see where I wrote on the bill that your rear main seal is leaking and that you declined the repair?

Customer: Yes, but my car is still leaking, I paid you $1000 to fix my leaks! For that kind of money I want a leak free car. Can't you put some kind of goop on it to make it stop?

Me: **pound head on desk**

So, I put this to you, the community,

1. Are the cars really starting to show their age?
2. Are the new owners just cheaper with a buck
3. Am I just being a crabass?


Discuss

AFJuvat

[Blackfoot]

It's simple. Most older Porshes, like 944s, are affordable, even cheap. Low entry cost. But the cost of ownership is HIGH, and underestimated by most everyone. And they aren't the most reliable cars.

So when an owner pays $1200 repair bills twice a year on his $4000 944, he gets to thinking, hey is this really worth it?

______________________
Cars

[Moneyguy1]

Blackfoot has it right: "And they aren't the most reliable cars". One has to ask why the 944 is so "cheap" to start with. One possibility is that there hasn't been a 4 cylinder Porsche since the 912E. The 944 engine is overcomplicated, underpowered and undersized, not living up to what people expect of a "real Porsche". So, when someone buys one only because it carries the Porsche badge, many are disappointed at the lack of power (951 models excepted). They are difficult to work on, and when they break, the breaks are unnecessarily expen$ive.

Mine has gotten the best of care, but has been "up on blocks" for a few months now, after eating up two fuel pumps, one brand new that ran for under ten minutes before tanking out (yes, a genuine brand new Bosch). I really do not know if it is worth the effort to continue pouring money and time into something that I can't trust. And, if the car has required "heavy work", like a total reseal, I have had this kind of work done by a Porsche certified garage. The "lighter" work (suspension, brakes, electrical) I do myself. And yet, despite reading here about folks who claim 150k and more without mishap, I have found the 944 less reliable than a 1977 924 I had for years, and a 912 I had before that. I have three pages of repairs and replacements in the 6 years I have owned the car; a car with a certified 68 k on the clock.

Love the looks and handling, Hate the drive train.

[nightheart]

I guess I'll chip in my .02cents. The first thing that attracted me to the 944 was the price. I mean a dirt cheap porsche (at least compared to new 911's), but I did come here and a few other places and read up on some of the stuff that can and does go wrong. I'm still not happy with the large repair bills, both past and those that I'm sure are coming, but I deal with it.
Some people can't. I changed transmission fluid and a fuel filter for a friend of mine (94 Saturn) last week, and you should have heard him complain about spending 25 bucks on parts from Autozone. My reply was, would you like to see my last porsche bill?
Some people are just cheap, some don't know what their getting into, and some are just downright stupid. The older the 944 gets, the worse it's going to get. The price of the cars will continue to go down, and the maintence neglect wil be worse. Life sucks sometimes, and I don't envy you at all in dealing with this crap.

[livewirevoodoo]

Originally posted by nightheart
Some people are just cheap, some don't know what their getting into, and some are just downright stupid.

Hits the nail on the head. The cost of admission is relatively low, the cost of upkeep can be prohibitive.

I sold my maxima when I finished financing last june and bought my 944. But I continued to put the $320 a month I was paying in financing in a savings account every month. I went from having a car note to having a mechanic note.

Total cost of repairs after 12 months of ownership: ~$1400.
Cost of financing maxima over a 12 month period: $3840.

'Savings' during the 1st year: ~$2,400. Note that I didn't include trim items or stereo. Also consider that car taxes are cheaper as is insurance. Frustration is somewhat higher, and reliability (initially at least) was lower until I invested in some repairs and upkeep.

Anyone looking to spend $5,000 on a 20 year old car and not expect the unexpected repairs has unrealistic expectations.

[earlr85944]

This vehicle should be owned and maintained by the owner to realize the most enjoyment and value. Otherwise an owner who doesnt do his own work should be prepared to spend what it takes to keep the car running correctly. If the new owner did not do he research to see what he was getting into or if its an old owner who neglected maintenance then pay up and fix it or sell it and go out and buy something that will run for years without maintenence. We all know the cars are out there that will do it but we also know they cannot perform like a 944. Im not talking 0-60 im talking about the feel of the car holding the road and those sexy body lines. There is a lot of tradition built into these cars and there is a price to pay to enjoy it.

[mike944]

I think the general public's attitude is: It runs fine, why do i need to spend money on it? You're just trying to screw me.

Way too many people know absolutely NOTHING about cars, don't know what's involved in keeping them running, don't understand what can go wrong. If it moves when i push the gas pedal, and slows down when i push the brake pedal, there's nothing wrong with it.

People are definitely cheap. I once read a quote from a president of a major airline, and found it online. Here it is: "Robert Crandall, the crusty former boss at American Airlines, used to say that customers always talk in surveys about food and legroom. But when it comes to buying tickets, the only thing that ever matters to them is price." In other words, people buy the cheapest, and then complain when it doesn't work as well as the best.

944's are rather inexpensive (as far as used cars go) to get in to, and many times, people underestimate the cost of keeping one running. Jaguars (prior to the Ford takeover) are in a similar situation. Cheap to buy, but expensive to keep running.

Everything we buy has 3 real costs associated with it.
1. The initial purchase price.
2. The cost of maintaining it (keeping it in usable condition).
3. The cost of keeping it (taxes, insurance, and the "cost" in space to keep it).

Many times, the initial purchase price turns out to be the smallest of the three. Nobody sees the other 2 when they go to buy something, and they certainly don't realize that the other 2 can be significantly larger than the first.

For example, take a common light bulb. Costs, what, maybe 25cents to buy? Over it's lifespan, it uses between $5 and $15 worth of electricity. Doesn't it make sense to spend a little more on a lightbulb that's more efficient? NOPE, buy the cheapest one.

Old cars are expensive to keep running. Nobody is happy with large repair bills, but you have to expect them from time to time. It's (almost) always cheaper to keep maintaining an older car than making payments on a brand new car. A new car is a fixed amount every month, with a used car, you get hit in larger "payments" but more randomly.

[sasquatch]

AFJufat. What you are seeing with your Porsche customers is not limited to Porsches. My best friend owns a shop and he gets it from all type of car owners. Says its "normal".

What adds insult to injury is the relationship between cost of ownership vs. value of car. My father owns a Ferrari 348ts that he bought 5 years ago for $55k. It is still worth $55k(+). Although both of us do our own work, due to time contstraints, he paid to have a Ferrari shop do the 25k service. It was $10,000. In their defense, they do ALOT to the car. He paid the bill with no issues.

Now, with a 944 that you paid $3-6k for, and get a $2500 bill for clutch and belt job, they freak.

Think of this. If you can easily afford to pay big repair bills, most likely you are not buying an older 944.

And, I disagree with the performance issues. Yes, it is down on power. But at the last PCA autocross last weekend, my 87na 944 took 2nd place OVERALL against all sorts of Boxters, 911's and 914s. The ONLY car to beat me was a dedicated 911 race car with a very good driver, and that was only by .5 seconds. I held TToD untill his last run.

I love my baby.

[sasquatch]

And to compare... My daily beater, a 1989 BMW 750il V12 can consume money faster than most 944s I have ever heard of. I still love it, and love to care for it.

[bryanthompson]

You're preaching to the choir, AF

When I got the 944, I was as clueless as the next newbie. It was a cheap Porsche, and I didn't realize what I was getting into. I have asked dumb questions, made some dumb mistakes, but learned a lot so far. When I broke my timing belt, that's when i got the startling realizeation: to keep a 944 running, you need a suitcase full of money or you have to become to mechanic. The last two years have been spent fixing all of the problems myself (with help from the board, of course). Even with all of the help and all of the stuff I've already fixed/replaced on the car, I still consider myself a newbie. But, a newbie who is able to learn, willing to get dirty, and not afraid of doing things the slow and expensive, but correct way.

I get mad when people don't take the advice of the board and instead go off on some tangent, wasting more time and money than they would have in the beginning. 944s are expensive, either learn that and live with it, or buy a damn honda!

Your questions:
1. After 20+ years, yeah, I think the cars are showing their age. You don't see many 20 year old cars on the road. period. That you see any is kindof amazing in some ways.

2. yep, I think so. We're spoiled by hondas and chevys that don't require the maintainence that a 944 does.

3. yeah, but with reason I'd be offended if some idiot took the cheap way out and THEN came back to complain about it. Their friends will only hear that you're a crook, even though they are the stupid asses and you told them specifically what would happen if they went the cheap route.

[rudidelange]

In SA the 944's are not cheap!!!!!, our parts are more expensive, I don't know why we buy then and pour money into them. Nissans and Toyota sortscars are cheaper, faster, and easier to maintain but they dont have that emotive appeal.
Maybe is because the 944's have the exclusive attraction, the sexy lines the handling and who know what.? Owing a 944 and doing your own repairs it what creates the fun.

[scottmandue]

I don't think there is much I can add to what has been said.

Yes 944's are cheap to buy and unsuspecting buyers will be shocked and dismayed at the cost of maintenance. All's you can say is if you are going to buy an old car on a limited budget you better do a little research as to what it will cost to keep it running.

I was on the verge of buying a 968 (from Blackfoot) and sure if I scarped together all my nickles and dimes I could have got it (at a great price) however reality stepped in and said "if you go broke buying this car how will you afford to keep it running?"

Bob, I think your problem is your car has way to few miles on it... 944's get broke in somewhere around the 100K mark. But seriously there does not seem to be any constant in automobile reliability, I'm sure new Honda's implode occasionally on there way out of the dealers lot.

I have a $4000 944 with 150K miles, a broken sunroof, only one of the stereo speakers works, occasional gas smell in the cockpit, no A/C, and a looks good from 20 feet paint job.
I also have a $12,000 Hyundai, runs smooth as glass, everything works, and a 10 year/100K mile warranty.

When I go out on a date which car do you think the ladies want me to show up in?

[ronin]

Originally posted by sasquatch
Think of this. If you can easily afford to pay big repair bills, most likely you are not buying an older 944.

that about sums it up. as Brit and I were discussing this morning, cheap pricetags attract cheap customers. I already saw this in the early 90s when 944s were already selling for comparatively cheap prices and many cars on the market even at that time were poor examples because they were purchased by people that could not afford to maintain them

livewire has it right, however. compared to payments on a new car, maintaining an older Porsche can still be lower in cost than payments on a new car. I've been trying to teach this principle to any prospective new Porsche owner whenever they stop by the shop. many times to no avail, but the principle still holds true. unfortunately, too many people's realities do not extend beyond the frame of reference displayed by nightheart's Saturn-owning friend

[Moneyguy1]

scott:

(with tongue firmly in cheek)

You mean you have top drive the car at least 100k before it becomes reliable?

bryan: All kidding aside..I am not surprised that there are 20+ year old Porsches on the road..Most are "put away" for a good part of the year!! Back in the rust belt, I didn't know on PCA member that drove between mid November and mid April. IMHO, a Yugo would last 20+ years if given the attention that many Porsche vehicles get!!

Yikes!!

[bigyagi]

AF, i think you are being too hard on yourself! its fairly true to say, that the majority of vehicle owners,tend to "live" with faults, and they have a way of accumulating, hence the high price of much-needed repairs. most owners in that situation, only have themselves to blame. when they sell that particular car on, thats when it turns out badly, when the new owner gets stuck.
i'm fairly sure that the majority of posters here, keep up with their maintenance, and replace/repair any issues. but i have to hold up my hand, and say that i have put on hold a small pwr steering leak for some time now, and a couple electrical issues too !
i'm sure that like me, many owners make up "to-do" lists, on the 944, for the weekend, and having done them, start again next weekend, with yet another list! and so it goes on! i mostly drive my car on the weekends, and a couple times in the evening, and i find that keeping up with basic maintenance, and keeping the car in great shape, and roadworthy, is a joy in its own. when i bought my car, i knew nothing about it at all, but from this bbs, and clarks garage etc, its been a pleasure, to learn from other enthusiasts, and professionals alike.
on a personal note, i think we are lucky, as far as prices go, to keep a 944 going, as regards repair cost/parts. when i look at the 911 board, and see some of the horror storys going there, i dont mind these guys saying the 944 isnt really a porsche !
keep your chin up mate!
bob.

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
scott:

(with tongue firmly in cheek)

You mean you have top drive the car at least 100k before it becomes reliable?

it's true ... it's true!

Tell you what, I'll trade you my 150K miles 944 for yours straight across.

Seriously, I'm on my second Hyundai with about 50K on it and I have had very little trouble with either of them, but then there a allot of people that will tell you Hyundai's are unreliable and I'm sure they had one that was in the dealer for repairs every other week.

I guess what I am saying with any product there seems to be a gamble on how reliable it is going to be whether it is a car, a stereo, or a refrigerator.

YMMV

[ae1969]

Originally posted by AFJuvat


1. Are the cars really starting to show their age?
2. Are the new owners just cheaper with a buck
3. Am I just being a crabass?


Discuss

AFJuvat

1. Yes

2. Cheap ............ and quite a few young owners with no WAY to finance the cost of ownership. THey are drawn to own a 5K porsche when they should be buying a 5K honda.

3. Maybe an AssCrab.

[Dantilla]

The future of the 944?

More of them will turn into race cars.

[Ferrara_racing]

AF...A lot of Americans are stupid.

I work in medicine. I have seen my partners write scripts for antibiotics and have the patient's tell them it costs too much to use. I want to say are you nuts? You would rather have an infection than pay? These same shlubs pay 60 a month for cable crap TV but won't heal their bodies. Now what does that say for their feelings about paying for cars? I also think there are a lot of 44's that have been beaten on, resurrection of a car like that takes a fat wallet. I know when I sold mine it was right as rain and had all the service receipts to back it. If I were going to buy another one I'd look for that. People who think stealing one cheap is a good idea soon find out that making it road worthy is a huge $$$$$

[AaronM]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
scott:

(with tongue firmly in cheek)

You mean you have top drive the car at least 100k before it becomes reliable?

bryan: All kidding aside..I am not surprised that there are 20+ year old Porsches on the road..Most are "put away" for a good part of the year!! Back in the rust belt, I didn't know on PCA member that drove between mid November and mid April. IMHO, a Yugo would last 20+ years if given the attention that many Porsche vehicles get!!

Yikes!!

I drove my 924S daily for two years. Through snow, salt, rain, whatever. Hell, drove the bloody thing around through a blizzard in Pittsburgh on winter. Bought it with a shot PS rack, busted sunroof, shot clutch (this last was unknown to me), and 140,000 miles. Fixed the PS rack. Changed the clutch. Fixed the sunroof. New brakes when a front caliper stuck. New wheel bearings. Never did fix the A/C. New plug wires. New fuel lines. Easily doubled the purchase price in the first couple months. After that, it never let me down. Overall, it still cost me less than my friends' Kias and Hyundais. A lot more fun to drive too.

I have a good understanding with mechanics. If it's broken or going to break, fix it. I'll find a way to pay. Taken care of, things will last almost forever.