ECU chip?

[Capt Squid]

Since someone mentioned that the 944 Spec racers know all the performance tricks, I will chime in. He must of been referring to 944 Cup racers because 944 Spec runs a completely stock engine including headers.

In the early days of 944 Spec, aftermarket chips and headers were allowed. One of the guys I raced with blew up an engine with a Wilk chip. I had a dyno with both stock and aftermarket chips and the results were a few HP more with an aftermarket chip. A straight exhaust with aftermarket headers made about 5HP more. The only advantage to a chip was that the rev limiter was set higher. FYI, chips are no longer allowed in 944 Spec. We all run stock chips.

Spend your money on suspension upgrades. If you have to have more power buy a 944 Turbo, S2 or 968.

[J1NX3D]

Originally Posted by HondaDustR

Porsche gained 8 hp for the '88 model year by increasing the CR to 10.2:1.
Pelican Parts: Porsche 944 Model Specifications

whats pelicans source for the 8v n/a numbers? they're quite a bit off for the US spec <'88 cars and the '88 from what I see- 143hp vs 150hp for the same year in pelicans link.

for '88 the RoW took a drop from 163hp @ 10.6:1 to 160hp @ 10.2:1.

this link corresponds with the rest of my information (porsche owners manual, Peter Morgans book, etc.)
Weissach.net - 924/944/968 Road Test Summary

I'm getting a baseline dyno for my '86 RoW n/a this Thursday. 24yrs old, 125,000km, all stock no rebuilds, just regular servicings, no cat from factory. It should be really interesting and i'd be ecstatic if its anywhere near 130hp at the wheels after all this time!

[flash968]

in recording a baseline:
make sure that the differential is up to temp - record that temp
make sure the engine is up to temp - record that temp (not just a coolant temp reading)
measure and record the intake temp, and note the intake temp sensor
measure and record the barometric pressure, ambient temp, and humidity
measure the time between runs - this should be about 3-4 minutes


then, do at least 5 runs after things are warmed up - throw out the high and the low - average the remaining 3

[M758]

Originally Posted by flash968

..a normally aspirated 2.5 can expect to see 7 or 8hp with a GOOD chip, on premium fuel, assuming that the ambient temp is below 80F, and you are near sea level, with average barometric pressure and humidity - this is your best case scenario...

I call B/S on this too. 7 hp I would notice. I have raced aginst car with chips and 7hp is not gain people see. It just is not. 2-4 hp is possible that is all. The only time a chip made a difference on track was one that was custom tuned and developed on a dyno for a particular car. This chip did not even make alot of peak hp, but improved the mid range some. However that was not an off the shelf chip. It probalby took 8-10 hrs of dyno time to perfect the map for that particular car to see those gains.

[M758]

Originally Posted by flash968

yeah - a chip by itself isn't a big gain - if you get a GOOD cold air intake, and a GOOD chip, you can generally expect about a 10% bump in total power on just about any engine - that still isn't a lot, but on the track it could be the difference between you or the other guy coming out of that corner first

but i TOTALLY agree about a DE being better at improving things more than anything else

Again B/S.... The stock Porsche Airbox is good cold air intake. Most aftermarket system rob hp. I have been looking NA hp for 8 years and always seen the same thing.

Now I have see guys removed old stock cats with a test pipe and get 10 hp peak. That is about it for NA "power adders".

A good stock 944 NA motor will put out 130-135 whp with a test pipe. That is for a fresh rebuild.

[M758]

Originally Posted by Capt Squid

Since someone mentioned that the 944 Spec racers know all the performance tricks, I will chime in. He must of been referring to 944 Cup racers because 944 Spec runs a completely stock engine including headers..

Jim,
Back in the days of chips and headers we had people looking for power in these areas. Results were in general poor. It took alot of money for virtually no gain. However in racing sometimes a small gain can tip the balance. Stock chips and headers has preventing speeding spree for 4 hp. So good overall.

Even so most of us old timers have experience with some of the standard "bolt on power adders" and what they really do.

[flash968]

it's not BS - there are better cold air intakes out there - they do work - you can't fight the physics - lower the temps and gain power - you get about 2 hp for every 15 degrees of intake temp drop - this is a well known and accepted concept - we also know that if you increase the flow you gain power

that being said, i completely agree that there are also ones that don't work as well as stock - we see that all the time - you have to know what you are doing, and not just stick some cone filter on there

by the way, i am an old timer - i've been tuning and setting up cars longer than the 944 has even been around - i am well aware of what works and what doesn't, and more importantly, why

[M758]

Originally Posted by flash968

it's not BS - there are better cold air intakes out there - they do work - you can't fight the physics - lower the temps and gain power - you get about 2 hp for every 15 degrees of intake temp drop - this is a well known and accepted concept - we also know that if you increase the flow you gain power

I have never seen one. Intake (before the AFM) is legal to modify in 944 spec yet the fast cars run a stock airbox.

Sucking air from the fender is already a cool spot.

[flash968]

i'm not sure how "944 spec" rules enter into the equation or relevance of the original posters query, but most classes allow pretty much anything in front of the afm or maf

the air in the fender is definitely not bad, but the grill is better - also, flow limitation of a paper filter costs power - the tubing size, corregation, airbox volume, airbox construction, and airflow bends would also factor in

as i said a "good" cold air intake can help - a bad one will hurt - on the 968 for example, we picked up 10.8 peak hp, dyno proven on multiple cars

one of these days, maybe i'll play with a 944 intake

[968 GUY]

I think the OP is sitting in his unchipped and running car in the garage with a hose from the exhaust in through the window.

[flash968]

roflmao - that makes 2 of us now

i think a lot of the skepticism arises from low budgets - i know i've spent as much on tuning this week alone as many of the guys here have spent on their entire car, so i understand when they balk at spending money to tune a chip

[J1NX3D]

my sheet is in my cars garage info. the best run was 91.9kw = 123.24rwhp with approx 25% loss is pretty much still factory power.

[M758]

Originally Posted by mAd924

my sheet is in my cars garage info. the best run was 91.9kw = 123.24rwhp with approx 25% loss is pretty much still factory power.

Remove the cat and I bet you can pickup 7 hp easy. May be 10 hp. Most 944 spec cars put out 128 to 135 whp based on dynojet. I don't know any 944 spec racer that uses a cat converter.

One of the major problems with 8valve 2.5L NA motor is that there is an airflow restruction somewhere from the AFM to the head. Not sure exactly where it is. Some say it is the barn door style AFM itself, some say it is port design in the head (too big and that slow input velocity which limit cylinder filling at higher RPM). Personally I am not really sure. However what I do know is that the 944 NA 2.5L 8valve is insensitive to alot of standard tuner mods. Bolt on for the most part get you a fraction of the advertized gains.

Now the 944 Turbo is easy to gain hp due to the ease of adding boost. The 16valve motors use a different head and intake tract so their ablilty to gain power is different.

Not the reason I bring up 944-spec is that these cars are some of the few cars that have development looking for hp in the motors. We are regulated by the need to keep thing stock, but alot of our rules are stuctured around ways to keep power equal. If we allow a mod to be open or free it mostly because it does not do anything to change the balance of power. 5hp is good gain our class so if there was 5 hp to begaind by changing the airbox it would be done. If that required some $500 special airbox to it it would be banned for cost reasons.

However because it is open nobody had found anything yet. Most guys run the stock box because it works.

[HondaDustR]

The AFM probably doesn't help, but I have a feeling the stock 8v cam is a bit mild, as is the compression ratio. But then you're probably talking maybe 20hp tops when that is upgraded along with some good headers and no cat, and the fuel/ignition re-tuned to take full advantage of. You may be able to get 30 hp with a ridiculous cam, solid lifters and lots of bottom end work to make high power delivery at rpm in excess of 7000 possible. It could be done but would be major $$$$ for a relatively small gain. One reason why I hold alot of respect for the Honda B18 type R motors. They pretty much come that hot out of the "box", only they're making 180 hp out of 1.8L. Even the standard B18 is nothing to sneeze at, and can be bumped up with some $$$.

[flash968]

there is definitely improvement to be made in the stock intake - it is no different than many intakes that see significant improvement - in looking at it, i see obvious areas where i am certain i could add 5hp with just the intake rework - cost for such a kit would be about $200 when all is said and done

if i had a car here, i would be more than willing to put my money where my mouth is and develop it at my own expense, if somebody were willing to pay for it afterward if it did what i said it would

[ewalt98]

Originally Posted by flash968

there is definitely improvement to be made in the stock intake - it is no different than many intakes that see significant improvement - in looking at it, i see obvious areas where i am certain i could add 5hp with just the intake rework - cost for such a kit would be about $200 when all is said and done

if i had a car here, i would be more than willing to put my money where my mouth is and develop it at my own expense, if somebody were willing to pay for it afterward if it did what i said it would

I'd be happy to send you an intake!

[M758]

Originally Posted by flash968

there is definitely improvement to be made in the stock intake - it is no different than many intakes that see significant improvement - in looking at it, i see obvious areas where i am certain i could add 5hp with just the intake rework - cost for such a kit would be about $200 when all is said and done

if i had a car here, i would be more than willing to put my money where my mouth is and develop it at my own expense, if somebody were willing to pay for it afterward if it did what i said it would

$200 for 5hp? I would buy it really fast. However I would need confirm that with a back to back dyno run on my 944. I would be happy to pay for the dyno run.

remember though. I need to keep the AFM stock, as well as chip and fuel pressure. I could adjust the mixture via the AFM,but that is all.

[flash968]

everything else would remain stock

i would of course do back to back dyno runs, but i would do it in a controlled environment, carefully ensuring the same conditions for each set of runs

i would not use a dynojet, as they are not at all accurate - they are popular only because they are inexpensive - i would use an eddy current dyno to get real results

what i would need is a volunteer car - it would need to be here for at least a full day for me to mock up the parts - then it would need to come back for the fitment and testing

[J1NX3D]

Originally Posted by mAd924

I'm getting a baseline dyno for my '86 RoW n/a this Thursday. 24yrs old, 125,000km, all stock no rebuilds, just regular servicings, no cat from factory.

Originally Posted by M758

Remove the cat and I bet you can pickup 7 hp easy. May be 10 hp.

i have a few maintenance things to do and then start modding. i'll be going back to the same dyno after each mod. first mod is some lightweight pulleys and then talking to Russell Berry about a 944max chip to suit the gas I use here (98RON). I'm getting it purely for drivability, i'm not interested in big numbers, especially for an 8v n/a... thats kind of pointless imho.

the dyno is in a sealed, climate controlled room btw

[M758]

Originally Posted by mAd924

i have a few maintenance things to do and then start modding. i'll be going back to the same dyno after each mod. first mod is some lightweight pulleys and then talking to Russell Berry about a 944max chip to suit the gas I use here (98RON). I'm getting it purely for drivability, i'm not interested in big numbers, especially for an 8v n/a... thats kind of pointless imho.

the dyno is in a sealed, climate controlled room btw

Ok, I missed the part about no cat. I believe some non-usa markets got them.

Beyond that I wonder if you are using a different dyno or have an issue. 123 whp about what I would expect a decient US spec 9.5:1 car to put down on Dynojet with a normal Cat.

Most 944 spec cars make 5-10 hp more. The only motor mods are no-cat and the head is usally fresh. By fresh I mean had been removed, cleaned and valves seated to factor specs.

I would expect a 10.6:1 car with not cat to be at least 135 whp given the 163 bhp rating vs the 150 hp rating for the US spec 9.5;1 cars.

That said if you are not using a dynojet or use a different standard correction the numbers will be different as most of my data comes from dynojets.