Exhasut Manifold bolt missing!

Goldengreg · 11-17-2011, 04:34 PM

Hi,
My 951 has been rattling like a obnoxious tambourine, and it has been driving me crazy. Replace motor mounts and CAT (also didn't pass smog so that was useful).

After reading about heat shields here I decided to look again and could not believe the one of the exhaust manifold was completely missing the bolt and screw! So that is why my turbo sounded louded than normal....

Anyway, my question to you guru is I ordered the gasket, bolt, washer and nut. Is this something that i can do easily (like slide a new gasket in after loosening the other bolt). Or is this going to be a major pain? I have to be stealth about it since I am in a shared garage.

Also, does anyone knwo the torque on this?
Thanks for any help in advance!
Greg

Rasta Monsta · Rasta Monsta's Garage

You don't want to hear this, but the correct repair would be to pull the manifold. . .and I would replace all studs and nuts while I was at it. The problem is that a cold air leak that close to the head can warp valves. . .and you don't want that.

Techno Duck · Techno Duck's Garage

Sliding a new gasket in is do-able but you need to remove the other stud in order to do it this way. Many times the stud / nut will come off as one anyhow. Otherwise you can double nut the stud to back it out.

Make sure the other fastener is indeed missing and did not have half the stud break off in the cylinder head also.

Goldengreg · 11-17-2011, 05:29 PM

Thanks Guys, but I like your thought better Techno (glad you are still around btw, you give alot of great advice).
After looking at the connector to the crossover i really donlt want to go there unless no other choice. I also pray that the stud did not break, but i cannot see anything since it is a bad angle.

One more question. There are copper nuts that act as washers too that are available. Since the washers are only Porsche and might take weeks to get here, are those ok to use?

Techno Duck · Techno Duck's Garage

The copper plated nuts are fine if you can get them. If i remember right they are a 12mm head instead of a 13mm. I am using that hardware on my car right now.

Stick a mirror there to see if the stud broke off in the head. Dont want to scare you but my car had this issue when i bought it. I have seen it personally and read about them backing out completely also.

kdjones2000 · kdjones2000's Garage

I had a stud break off on me a long time ago. A master mechanic did some magic and was able to replace it without removing the manifold. Don't ask me how...

Pretty common, I think.

Goldengreg · 11-17-2011, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techno Duck

The copper plated nuts are fine if you can get them. If i remember right they are a 12mm head instead of a 13mm. I am using that hardware on my car right now.

Stick a mirror there to see if the stud broke off in the head. Dont want to scare you but my car had this issue when i bought it. I have seen it personally and read about them backing out completely also.

Techno- great to hear. I already ordered parts from pelican but the washer will take forever, so I will call them tommorrow and get the nuts from paragon (pelican doesnt offer) Here is paragons write up, which sounds like what you are taling about. I will do the mirror check in the morning. I really appreciate your help!:

"8mm x 12mm, package of 20

If you've ever removed the exhaust system from your car, you know it requires a bit of a balancing act in order to put things back in place. Not only do you have to hold the exhaust in place, but you also have to somehow manage to install a washer and nut on each stud. Delicate at best, but we can help! Our Cooper 8mm Exhaust Nuts have a built in flange that acts as a washer by distributing the nuts torque over a much wider area. The 12mm head gives you more room for a socket, and these nuts are self locking to boot! And of course, because they're copper, they'll never rust. "

Goldengreg · 11-17-2011, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kdjones2000

I had a stud break off on me a long time ago. A master mechanic did some magic and was able to replace it without removing the manifold. Don't ask me how...

Pretty common, I think.

Good to hear KD, will see what I am up for tommorrow. If remnants are there, I will have someone else do the job, cause "I ain't no expert"

Goldengreg · 11-18-2011, 11:20 AM

I am screwed as usual. Looks like the bolt is sheared off in there. I doubt a mechanic can pull it out without removing the manifolds so as usual this will be a bigger job than expected. Man this sucks.

Techno Duck · Techno Duck's Garage

Which one is broken? As long as its not a stud on the inner bend of the manifold it could possibly be done without pulling the manifold. When i was thinking of how to fix it on my car i was going to use the flange as a guide to help center the bit as i drill the stud out.. you may get lucky with a reverse drill bit also here. Many times i see the studs completely back out over a time, and more often than not the studs also unthread as you turn the nut. Pulling the manifolds off isnt too bad though if thats what it comes down to. The hardest part is getting them at the right angle to remove.. they really only come out one way. Also a great opportunity to inspect the manifolds for cracks at the merge collector and flanges at the cylinder head. I can almost guarantee you will find some.

I ended up pulling the head off to replace the 20 year old head gasket though, so never did try it.

Goldengreg · 11-28-2011, 06:04 PM

Well, my mechanic chickened out after taking the car in and said the head probably needs to be removed and no one in the area wanted to do it.

After having a stress headache my friend and I decided we are going to take this on this weekend. I know we can get in there and do it. It is on the #1 and when i took a video of the broken stud , i saw that it is broken about a 1/4 inch below cylinder wall.
There is some good news. Not sure if my mechanic did this or not when they tried, but there seems to be a pilot hole dead center on the stud! So the drilling might not be too bad, especially if i use a jig.

I am planning on using grabit pro's Grabit-Pro | Alden

Anyone have experience with these? I read the reviews and there were a few people who used these successfully on M8 bolts. Otherwise i also have the standard extractor, but have heard more horror stories on these. Planning on replacing all 4 bolts once i get the manifold off. I was thinking of keeping the manifold on until i saw it was not centered.

Rasta Monsta · Rasta Monsta's Garage

And when the next one lets go?

Goldengreg · 11-29-2011, 09:43 AM

I bought 6 bolts, 1 for practicing, 1 for a spare, and and 4 for new plus new copper nuts. But thanks for the optimistic comment Rasta, lol.

Rasta Monsta · Rasta Monsta's Garage

Meh, just concerned that you'll do this the stressful, risky, PITA way, and then have to do another one down the road. . .that's just something these turbo cars like to do to us. Ask me how I know this. . .

Goldengreg · 11-29-2011, 11:24 AM

Is there any other way? heh
But seriously, any other suggestions on making this less stressfull are appreciated. I need to take the 1-4 manifold off either way. Saw turboduck used a gearwrench pivoting wrench for the crossover part connection so I got that. Also got a new right angle drill, penetrating oil, jack, punch tool, t wrench, drill bits, mirror, lights, rabbits foot, and 12 pack of beer. Hopefully will not need to tow home.

Techno Duck · Techno Duck's Garage

Take the 1-4 manifold off. The first thing i would try is reverse drill bit, start small (very small) and work your way up a little at a time. You may get lucky and the broken stud will back out. If this does not happen, i would skip the extractors and just drill the old stud out, and either helicoil or timesert the thread. I say this because if you break an extractor you pretty much sealed your fate and will be pulling the head.

The key to success is getting a good start with a center punch, then start with the smallest drill bit and working your way up 1 at a time. This takes forever, but you reduce your chances greatly of breaking a drill bit off in the head. GOOD quality drill bits are a must also.

Basically i would avoid using the extractor unless you are 'ok' with the potential of having to take the head off in the event it breaks. Another thing to consider is you said the stud is broken fairly low in the threaded hole, the extractor may not work in this case.

Goldengreg · 03:03 PM

TD- more to buy, heh. i have a 5/32 cobalt but it is not reverse , just standard. The grabit tool is reverse on both the drill and extract.. I guess i will look more for those reverse bits since if they did not work i could still use the grabit as the last resort as it has the widest diameter. There is less of a chance of the grabit breaking than the normal extractors since it does not go deep and is the thickest.
Back to amazon prime for 2 day bit shiptment!
Thanks,
Greg

Goldengreg · 03:27 PM

After talking to my friend who is helping ,and since it is only a little over 1/2 inch of bolt left in there, we think this might be the best plan combining all of the ideas:

I think we can start with the thinnest reverse, if that does not work then try to dremel a line for a flat head screwdriver to reverse. If that does not work try next bit size up. If that does not work then use the grabit or drill out. I am a little nervous on the helicoil since it is such an awkward spot and hard to be exact. How does that sound?

Goldengreg · 01:10 PM

Ok one more question. If I clamp off the the tubes going to the water tube above the manifolds before removing it, do i need to somehow bleed the system if there isn't any water in the tube when i take it off?
If so, is this the best technique:?
Raise the front of the car on jackstands or ramps.
With the high point vent cracked open, slowly fill the coolant reservoir.
When the reservoir level is at or slightly above the maximum mark, coolant should start to come out the high point vent.
Continue to fill until a steady stream of coolant comes out the vent.
Close the high point vent.
The disadvantage to this method is that it is not as effective as Method 1. Also, when venting is complete, there may be more coolant in the reservoir than the system needs. Consequently, the reservoir will overflow due to coolant expansion the first time the car is driven after the vent.

Goldengreg · 12-08-2011, 10:54 AM

Thought I would give an update.
So last weekend I was going to go to friends on Sat but realized my cheap right handed drill would not fit in. So after a mad scramble I found the only good drill would be a nice Makita wit only a 2.58 width from tip to tip. Found one on Craigslist and drove out that night:

After getting to friends on Sunday, spent a while properly jacking the car up. For the record, the cheap $49 jack and stand kit at O'reillys rocks! It is so small it fits under the car without anyone lifting it.
Next we carefully removed the nut from the 1-4 and the coupler (universal joint was the only way that was going to work, almost stripped the farthest nut before using that). Still would not budge! So removed all the studs with the double nut method and finally got it off:

Per Technoduck, we tried the smallest left handed Cobalt bit and after 15 min of slow drilling the broken stud came out! After many high fives and a beer each, we thought the rest should be easy..... Not!

The header (per my other post) appear to have been warped too much and is the old type without the bellows . After almost stripping the left stud thread on #4, we gave up and realized I needed a new header. We then drank until we passed out (yes on a Sunday night, what is pto for?)

Anyway, got a new header coming tomorrow, and am going to ceramic coat it next week at Sandersons Headers for $100 and then retry this next weekend. My buddies wife is going to kill me since I am taking the garage all this time.