You're coming around to my point now. It's NOT about the powerplant, it's about how you use it. V8 swap NEEDING bigger brakes=debunked. If you primarily use a car on the track then brake upgrades are normally on the menu even with a stock engine. The single cheapest, easiest upgrade for brakes is exchanging your brake fluid for a higher boil point rating.

I do disagree with your second point. Not everyone that goes with a higher HP lump goes flying around like a teenager all the time screeching to a stop. Most people learn responsible operation of the high shelf toys one way or another. Overheating the brake system on a 944 would only be responsible operation on either a) the race track or b) towing a huge trailer down a mountain pass.

Saying the requirement of brake (or chassis for that matter) upgrades goes with a certain number of cylinders is again, simply ridiculous. You can relocate your battery or spend a minimal amount of money on a higher rate springs for the front. Still, and again, not going to spend $40k on that. Not even $1k.

i'm not coming around to anything. you made a sweeping statement that was incorrect on its face.

these cars are very soft, and not well suited for high power engines. a lot of work needs to be done to handle it. they were fine in their day, but still they are pretty primitive and soft.

more torque means more brakes needed. period. you may think that theoretically one has no relationship to the other, but that's like saying that just because she is walking by, that a woman won't walk into a shoe store if she has half a chance. you are living in a dream world if you think that anybody who drives a performance car won't take advantage of increased power. it's not just heat either on the brakes. it's surface area and clamping force. higher speeds means more capability requirement. that's just basic physics.

you cannot just change your OEM springs for stiffer ones. other than some cheap H&R springs, and those are the wrong rates anyway, they don't make any with those perch sizes. you would have to change or modify struts as well. also, anything you do to the front, you have to match to the rear. once you do that, you then need to deal with sway bars. once you do that, you need to address chassis flex, particularly at the suspension mounting points. to take advantage of it all, you then need to add more rubber, which generally means more wheel. that starts adding up in a hurry. i spent at least $25k on my suspension setup, and the car needed every dime of it, due entirely to the extra 75 lb/ft of torque.

as for moving the battery, it cost almost $1000 to move mine to the rear. the cable alone was $4/ft. then there are the isolator blocks, gold connectors, and the rubber mounted saddle i had to have made for the battery to rest in. then there was the gel battery, as you cannot use a lead/acid battery in the passenger compartment. by the time i was done, i spent almost $1000 on parts, and i did all the labor myself.

i think you need to try to set up a car correctly, and then add up the receipts. those of us who have been doing this for decades know exactly what it really takes. those who just read the internet are clueless. sure, you can half ass it and come in below what i am saying, but you end up with junk. to do it right, you'll spend a lot of money. that's why a camry can be had for pennies, and a porsche costs a lot more.

lmao


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/lol2.gif


big thing about brakes - make sure you have tires that can handle them.
i like my falken tires but the NA brakes will lock them up no problem...i want a stickier tire that makes the brakes work better, but don't want a loud tire at the same time..

The point I've made is the price tag you put out there at $50k is bs. $1000 for a battery relocation? Hilarious. Were the cables minted from pure gold? :) tell me another one please. How much for suspension and cooling system? I could use another laugh today.

$25k for suspension. If you're serious, I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you: "You're doing it wrong."

Depending on how long you've spent developing a car and for what purpose, it's possible to spend high figures on componentry, setup, analysis..etc. You don't have to drop a massive amount of $ if you were making the change from an n/a Porsche motor to a V8 but you should make some changes at the same time. If we are talking about taking a stock n/a 944 in 'normal' condition and putting in a V8, then I'd want to uprate the entire suspension (not just springs) system. I'd replace all the rubber bushings for aftermarket solid or Spherical such as Racers Edge sell. Plus put in later model brakes with all the ancillaries replaced too. That would get you a shopping list over $10k without touching the motor. Not to say people haven't done this for a lot less but that's why you see those crap swap cars on Craigslist that are just waiting to have an accident.

Those numbers are way high and we've already concluded the weight difference can be adjusted by moving the battery or having the driver use a treadmill. Why do you insist on the "right" way to do this as being $XXk in bs mods or it's automatically a hack? That's the problem here. Newsflash: spending $10k+ for tweaking due to 50lbs doesn't make you smart or even mean you're doing it the right way. It means you're a fool.

Not that I don't enjoy a ' spirited' debate - but we seem to have gotten a bit off topic. I apologize if I am violating some sort of forum protocol by stepping in - maybe only the OP is supposed to do this - but I am truly interested in other engine swaps for the 944 chassis. I have read electric conversion, ford/Chevy/rover V8, Audi/VW 5 cylinder, and Audi/VW turbo 4. Anything else?

What about the V6 from the base Cayene? If you are going with a truck motor....

Has anyone actually done the BMW straight 6? I had an E30 and loved it - that could be fun in this car, but I worry about balance.

For the record - I doubt I would ever do this, except for maybe a striker version of own motor, but I love the idea

It's probably good that we do debate these things out so people passing by aren't putting stock in the frivolous requirements for a conversion. How many of these cars have gone to the crusher because the owner researched and then truly believed it would cost $50k to install an engine that weighed 50lbs more... it's funny how cars get bad reputations.


Let me tell a little story. In the mk2 VW world back in the 90's and early 00's, a vr6 swap (putting the v6 where only the 4cyl previously existed) was widely believed to result in a car with dramatic under steer and generally terrible handling. The belief became widespread among keyboard bandits due to the simple fact of the additional weight forward the drive axle. Those who built and drove the cars knew better but had to deal with snide remarks such as "sure it's fast but handles like crap" from the folks that held steadfast on the belief that the original 4cyl was "superior" in the weight distribution department. Quietly, the vr6 swaps were dominating the autocross at the largest events (Waterfest) over the 4cyl counterparts. One engineer/vr6 swap owner (Paul for those of you who were there) started a rolling /inside joke about vr6 swaps causing cars to roll over because they handled so bad. Some people actually believed it which made it all the more funny. Eventually the general mindset changed and the swap doesn't carry the undo reputation of poor handling anymore. I was there at the time and remember how the mindset changed. The handling boogie man was slain only when the bs was confronted and mocked into shame of what it truly is: an attempt by a few to use fear in order control what others modify in the future so they who wield the fear don't have to eat their own words and their own car remains the definition of "correct/cool." The end.

The cayenne v6 is a vr6 of VW heritage. The oil pump is in a bad place so much so you would need to convert to a dry sump/external oil pump in order to clear the 944 subframe/steering rack. I have a brand new, fully built Schimmel 3.0L 12v version here on the shelf... would love to use it but it's not a good fit as the other options we've covered. Ina engineering or 034 EFI had a dry sump option available at one time.

Some classics:

http://sootrocket.vwenthusiast.com/Mk2Flipping.jpg

http://www.vwenthusiast.com/sootrocket/Mk2VRwhoops.jpg

http://www.vwenthusiast.com/sootrocket/Mk2VRwhoops2.jpg


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...bit/mk1vr6.jpg

http://sootrocket.vwenthusiast.com/RolloverMK2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ip/mk2flip.jpg

well lap, it seems that you fall into to the "rubber band and bubble gum" group. i can only imagine what your car is like. it is unfortunate that so many people are misled into believing that such projects can be done on the cheap. it only results in yet another pile of junk for sale on craigslist. this does a great disservice to the community, and is exactly the kind of thing that will lead to fewer and fewer good cars out there.

i'd love to see a list of cars you've done like that, and where they are today. when i had my shop, we did quite a few conversions. the ones where the customer insisted on short-cutting all ended up as junk, just as we predicted at the time. the ones where we did it right are still running today. any shop will tell you that it takes between 100 and 200 hours to do a conversion. that's easily between $10k and $20 in labor alone. they will also tell you that you are a village idiot if you want to install used parts, and most of them won't do it. nobody's time is free, and it is foolhardy to think it is. it's time taken away from work, kids, wife, or whatever. it all ends up costing the same, whether it is a vacation you have to take with the kids, or something shiny to appease the wife.

re: battery move - the cable used is 4200 strand cable. the connectors are gold. that is what is needed to have zero voltage loss front to rear. that stuff costs money, but that's the only way to do it right.

as for suspension, my wheels alone were over $6k, and were built specifically for my car. tires are another $2k, by the time they were mounted and road force balanced. each step of development meant a new suspension tune. it took 9 alignment/corner balance attempts, at $280 each, before we got it right. that doesn't even get into the shocks, struts, springs swaybars, suspension bracing, or any of the other items. it's very easy to get to $25k when you start having parts made, as i did, which is what you have to do when you start talking about the kind of torque i have, let alone what a V8 has, because there are not parts out there that you can just buy that will do the job.

the results though are a car that drives like one from the factory. it doesn't drive like some rattly, half baked, cobbled together mess.

I must have been correct in my summation here if you're going into personal attacks. I won't take the bait. People can see the input here for what it is. You can build a full chassis race car for less than the numbers you've shared which quite frankly are embarrassingly high. Insulting others is predictable of your current position when your motives are identified. The true disservice to the community is an attitude of being beyond reproach and all knowing when you're really trying to protect your individual idea of the ideal Porsche. Instead of discouraging and trying to scare people from the swaps with your inflated so called costs, why not focus on your own project to your liking and piss off? Go in peace.

I don't think sharing of prices you paid is having the effect you desire. It's not impressive. It's not scaring anyone off who knows what they're doing. It's... embarrassing you over-improved and demand others do the same dollar for dollar or be classified and insulted by you as a hack. Very sad... Not healthy for the community at large.

it is becoming incredibly clear that you have never done any of this before. if you had, you would have a stack of receipts that would support what i am saying. on the other hand, i HAVE done this kind of thing before, many times, and know exactly what it needed, and what it costs. i see that a lot from internet geniuses though. everybody thinks it can be done cheap. then they do it and add everything up, and realize it was a whole lot more than they thought, after adding in all the stuff they needed, all of which were outside the engine and bolt in kit. no worries. it's really easy to do the math. the numbers don't lie.

perhaps you merely have lower standards of what a car should run and drive like. that would explain a lot. i expect factory perfect performance, running, and appearance. i don't settle. that costs money. anything less always ends up in disappointment.

by the way, there is no hyphen in "inconvertible"

Continuing with the personal attacks. Are you done yet? You don't know me.

I don't think any insult was intended. Consider it a technical discussion. Modifications to cars can result in a car that is not safe to drive in it's originally intended purpose, such as the twisties, the freeway in bumper to bumper traffic at 65mph, etc. You may not be planning to drive the car there, but it may end up on craigs list and some kid could be thinking he is getting a hot car and end up in a serious accident. 25 year old cars are difficult enough to keep safe in a stock setup let alone with major mods. Even though the 944 is a great car and far safer than most.

The simple fact is people aren't going to put $50k into a toy car they bought for $2500. Insulting them because you've spent $150k and want to protect your position and rationalization is unreasonable. This is transparent to anyone reading your posts by and large. Best to just not say anything if you haven't learned that yet. I see similar reactions to posts of yours from years ago so this is perhaps your personality type to condescend and try to impress anyone who will listen with the mountains of cash you threw down the hole. I don't think you'll find many sympathetic ears here.

I didn't say you have to spend $10k on suspension/brakes. Just saying that it's not hard to do so if you want a half decent car. Look at a new set of Motons/KW's/Ohlins whatever...then there's Arms/hubs/bearings. Then wheels/tyres plus calipers, lines, pads, overhaul m/s cylinders etc...
Sure you don't have to do this. You can keep all the stock 944 parts. Nobody's twisting your arm. 'If' I was going to put in a V8 I would want to allow for other parts of the car to be upgraded. However, each to their own.

Over and out.

I understand what you're saying. Consider this: Would you upgrade out of necessity or belief of necessity? The 944 has decent bits to start with. Do you honestly believe when someone says 50lbs is going to require $10k (or $30k) plus in parts to erase the sensation of? I certainly don't and despite Flash's suggestion, I'm no spring turkey.

There is an important distinction when you reach the upgrade point between what is due to the powerplant of choice and the use of the vehicle under the driving style of the owner. Where we went astray here was Flash suggesting any swap required an investment of ridiculous proportions to not be a hack.. and circular logic that he made many of these required mods to a non-swap car for it to be to his standards! <-Worth reading that sentence twice. He has made no point in this thread other than how much money he has spent and what he thinks of his own work on what he perceives of his perfect performing 968. Completely useless input, just stroking oneself.

i fully realize that there are people who aren't going to spend what is needed to do the job right. it's that way with everything. that's exactly why i don't think it's a good idea to do it at all. advising somebody otherwise is irresponsible, bordering on actionable.

dj makes a good point. while you are responsible for your own actions, and can do whatever you want to your own car, it is not limited to you. if you are in an accident, and you did not do the things to the car that were needed for the new power, you could easily be held liable, and possibly criminally negligent. if you sell the car, and the buyer thinks it was safe, because of something you said, you would be liable. there is no waiver of rights or responsibilities that will get you out of that.

as for the rest, there are no attacks. if somebody takes something personally, that is their problem. i am dealing with that which is put before me.

people fall into 3 categories when it comes to auto repair. those who leave things stock, and have somebody else do everything. then there are those who DIY things and cheap out at every turn. then there are those who do things right, and know that things cost money to do it that way.

unfortunately, there are way too many people who own these cars and are in category 2. that will be the downfall of the car. attrition rates have risen dramatically over the last 10 years as a direct result of not taking care of things correctly, or modifying the car in such a manner that the car is no longer safe or reliable, and consequently wrecking it. this is precisely why i rail against those who would see the car end up at the wrecker by being irresponsible or unwise.

in the end, you get what you pay for.

did i spend too much? i think that depends on how you look at it. i would have bought a new ferrari if i thought it could do what this car does. i now have a car that has everything i want in it, and outperforms almost anything on the road. would somebody else have done it? not likely. however, i wanted something specific, and wanted to see if i could do it. a lot of the money spent was in development. i could probably reproduce the car for about $60k, including a similar purchase. given what the car can do, that is dirt cheap.

as a direct result of those development efforts, there are hundreds of others who have benefitted from it, by now having the parts, which i initially developed for my own car, on their car, thereby improving their experience with their car. that has been very gratifying to me, and i would have spent more, if i thought it would have widened that circle even farther. so, it's all relative.

You're feeling yourself way too much in here. Get a room.

get some facts and data. maybe even try building a car. then come back. until then, you are misinforming others, and leading then down a very treacherous path.

i've been doing this for over 30 years. i've seen hacks come, and i've seen them go. lots of b.s. along the way. no worries. it all shakes out in the end.

perhaps you should read your own signature. you should at least fix the error.

http://www.thelas.info/wp-content/up...t-is-wrong.jpg

I'm with you lap - the 944 platform starts with better underpinnings than most of the cars these LS's come from. (ex. Pontiac GTO with LS2 - same size front brakes, smaller rear, 400 hp, and 1000lbs heavier than a 951)

It's still a Porsche, and nothing is 'cheap'. The idea that $10k is cheap just seems foreign.

To the OP - what about the 2.5l VW I-5? I thought I saw something about it - the TTRS sure makes power with it. Or Audi 2.7t? The reason I think these swap thread always come back to LS's is because they meet all the criteria: cheap enough, powerful enough, lower maintenance, and small enough. If a swap for a 400hp v8 is going to cost the same (or close to it) of a 400hp V6t - I'll take the simpler [read: lower maintenance] motor.

I'm out
 

time to un subscribe its gettting a bit out of hand, While I 'm still here throw one more bone.
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/st...epics/0215.jpg

The VW 2.5 5cyl on the mk5 models has proven a stout platform for performance. There are turbo bits out there to bring their power up. I haven't heard of a 944 swap using one yet but I have seen them shoved into older Audi's already.

I would caution against any of the vw/audi/Porsche with FSI tech as they're from the same age range. These cars/engines are everywhere and have good performance numbers on paper. The intake ports carbon up due to no fuel injector to clean them. The result is a manual port service requirement that is a pain in the butt. Many who have used these engines (up to the 3.6L FSI VR6 and beyond) simply plug the fuel injector port to the combustion chamber and revert to port injection which solves the carbon issue and simplifies the installation.

flash968 saying something ridiculous again?

pffft :rolleyes:


as long as you can lock up the brakes, the problem isn't the brakes ... its the tires. and if you have good tires, then then there isn't anything bigger brakes can do to help. bigger brakes on the street is pretty silly in general, again, as long as you can lock up the fronts, there isn't anything for day to day use that you can improve on them with.

what bigger brakes do, is prevent fade/overheat. this comes into play when tracking the car, and almost never would come into play for street driving.

and if your going to say you need bigger brakes because the car weighs more, most engine swaps the engine is lighter then our stock engine.

if you actually spent 25k on your suspension, then you are a fool.

Ohlins and such are nice, but you could do the coil over koni mod on a late car with bigger springs and T-bars out back and be fine. The s2/turbo/968 would be ok with their existing brakes if your not going crazy with the LSx. Its the guys gunning for 400 to 500hp that need a lot more money in the car on suspension and brakes IMO.

If your starting with an NA than you need to spend money on better brakes, even if doing a 968 swap.

lol - that's like saying that if you spent $200k buying a ferrari that you are a fool. but that's what it takes. it's the same as saying that if you spend a million dollars on a track house that you're a fool, but that's what it takes here.

to get the 968 to do what i wanted, and be what i wanted, i had to spend the money i did. i knew how hard i was going to be driving the car, and how much power i was going to have., which meant that the speeds would be higher. that meant a more reactive suspension. i also know that i wanted a stock feel in ride quality, and not something bouncy, jarring or rough riding. that means hydraulic dual adjustable struts and shocks, much larger sway bars than anything out on the market, bracing of the suspension, new bushings everywhere, very lightweight custom made wheels, and super sticky tires. many parts had to be designed and made in order to get it right. then everything had to be adjusted and set, tested, readjusted and reset, again and again until it was right, adapting for each change along eh way. it's really pretty simple. as a result though, the suspension is so far beyond the koni yellow stuff that it's not even in the same league. it all adds up, but it's what i wanted. for me, it was completely logical. it was more than i thought it would be, as i had only budgeted $75k for the project, but i also made a lot of other decisions along the way that added to the price tag. i understand that somebody who spends $1500 on a car would think it was nuts. when i was a broke college kid, i thought the same thing. in terms of the people i hang out with though, who spend $100k buying a car without blinking, it is no big deal. in that world, one would never consider buying any car that cost less than $75k, no matter what it was. quality is everything, cost is nothing. you get what you pay for.

Damn son, that's awesome. Your quite right, its in another league over the yellows at that point, that said you can still accomplish a lot with yellows, light rims and an LSD :) it wont be as nice, but I do feel it would allow most to get what they wanted out of the car.

How any of this self-promotion for a car that isn't swapped, and that he continues to pollute the thread with, has anything to do with alternative engines other than a V8 is beyond me. Mods: Can we please block him from the thread at least?

Lets self mod instead and get back on track, this is just an escalation :\

total price for what you wanted from your suspension: 10 grand

tops

dumping that kind of money into a 968 was a waste in general though ... just buy a better car. :rolleyes:

the tires and wheels alone were almost $10k, so your numbers are way short.

i could not find a better car. that's the whole problem. i looked at everything up to and including a 360. this is better. try to name another convertible, 2 seat, front engine, rear drive, manual trans car, with a max of 10lb/hp, ac, power steering, power windows, heated seats, and the ability to carry 2 sets of golf clubs, 2 cases of wine, a weekend of luggage, and the wife. even my SL550 can't do that. if i could have found it, i would have bought it. i couldn't. so, i built it.

as for having anything to do with alternative engines, my entire point is that no matter what you do, if you are adding a bunch more torque, you need to upgrade the rest of the car to handle it.

lol on 968 being the best at something.

and lol on having to upgrade other things to do an engine swap.

and especially, lol at spending 10 grand in wheels and tires. bwahahahahahahaha

well, all i can say is that you must live in a different world. but then, you are in minnesota, so that probably explains a lot. people there put up with a lot of things i would not tolerate, and see no reason to. it's the same with cars. you would likely put up with inferior performance, whereas i would not.

in my world, my blue car has a dozen or so chips in the paint, so it's going in for a complete strip and repaint this winter. that's good for at least $8k. again, you get what you pay for. i will do that as many times as needed, to keep it looking new. my custom made recaro sportlines got dirty. i had them redone, because no amount of cleaning left them looking new.

i realize that most 944 owners don't have a pot to piss in. it's getting that way with 968 owners too. that's a normal regression, as the cars get older, and the value drops. it's the low rent district of porsches. that doesn't change the fact that i want more from the car, and have managed to get it.

back on topic, it also does not change the fact that increasing power, to the extent of a high power engine swap, dictates the necessity to upgrade the rest of the car to handle it. it's immutable. even porsche knew this, when they added a mere 75hp. they gave the suspension and brakes a major upgrade. it would be foolish to think that you wouldn't need to do similar things when you double the power.

WTF is this supposed to mean? :rolleyes:

inferior performance, while talking about a 968 compared to literally any car under 300k ... bwahahahaha

ok, man, ok, whatever you say

You live in a fantasy land. Tell Peter Pan hello when you see him.

http://blog.twowholecakes.com/wp-con...oge-mcduck.jpg

lol - it's that kind of "stuck in the box" thinking that cracks me up all the time.

the blue 968 now does 0-60 in about 4.5 seconds, tops out at about 170mph, gets 25mpg, and carries 2 set of golf clubs, 2 cases of wine, a weekend of luggage, and the wife, all while being comforted by heated custom made leather seats, a full leather interior, and a sound system that rivals pretty much anything. what other 2 seat convertible, front engine, rear drive car does that, at ANY price? if it were out there, i would have bought it. granted, when i was shopping for a car, i set the limit at about $200k, but i didn't find anything then, and i haven't found anything yet (looked at the new jag, but no trunk space).

it makes total sense that i had to spend as much as i did. i wanted that much car. i would no sooner own a box stock 944 than i would a yugo. i looked at the 968 as a platform upon which i could build something. i did not look at is as a 968, and frankly hated the fact that it was a porsche (still do). i saw the car not as what it was, but rather what it could be. that may be sacrilege, but it is what it is. it has worked out well though.

is it a fantasy? for some i suppose it is, just as living in southern california would be. for me, it's a daily pleasure.

Flash; you proved to me years ago you were an asshat, but i never saw the humor in how condescending you can be to us common folk.

I am surprised you will grace us with your time and stop what your doing in sunny southern California to bestow us poor common 944 folk living in the rest of the sub-par United States with your automotive and engineering expertise. Why do you lower your standards and hang out in the low rent district with us? Perhaps you should stick to the 968Forums where some may still be impressed by your $150k 968. Surely most of the low rent guys who visit this forum cant even count to $150k, so that is probably why noone is all that dazzled.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: