Are VW 2.0T's becoming any more accessible price-wise? Or given the aforementioned problems with DI would one be better served to build a 1.8T?

Here's a curveball - what about a 2.0 TDi?

Non-German, but how about a 4G63? Power for pennies there.

number 1: the blue 968 now does 0-60 in about 4.5 seconds, tops out at about 170mph, gets 25mpg

that is the very definition of inferior performance. bwahahaha, by modern standards that isnt even fast ... haha

number 2: this exists

http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadte...front-view.jpg

in every single way it meets or exceeds your requirements, and for less money even brand new and far better in every single category than a 968

a used C6 drop top or targa is even less then the suspension system you claim to have on your 968.

if you want to actually have a performance car, instead of a mediocre based on a mid 1970s VW, you can easily get the z06 or even zr1 for the prices you are talking about.



and the corvette is only the most reasonable in terms of dollars that fits your criteria. there are a half dozen off the top of my head that SMOKE any 968 ever build. i like the front fours as much as anyone .... but sinking even 25 grand into one, is a fools errand.

i learned long ago with cars, know what you are starting with when you start a project. otherwise, and no joke, i file you and your 968 in the same file as the teenager who super charges his cobalt and puts coilovers on it, cages it, and then thinks its cool and fast.

the lesson to be learned in this thread is, know what you are starting with, so you don't become flash968

Or what about a rb26? Someone else mentioned it I think, but that should be compact enough (I wouldn't think a 2jz would fit).

The 2.0T 16v is FSI and has the carbon intake port demon. The 1.8T 20v doesn't have the carbon demon and is plentiful/cheap.

The 4G63 is also powerful but problematic. They have balance shafts and oil pump/system failures that can be quite costly... so as with all engines you have to stay on top of basic maintenance but just a bit more so. Had one in a Gallant VR4 for a few years and modified it ... responded well and made good power. If you're familiar with the 4G63 then it's probably a fine option with sky is the limit power like the Audi 1.8t 20v it earlier VW 16v with a turbo. All have been over 1000whp.

this is why i hate the internet. people far too often read only what they want to read.

any car i was considering, had to be a 2 seat convertible, and had to have reasonable potential for performance, but the most important and inescapable features i was looking for was the ability to carry 2 cases of wine, 2 sets of golf clubs, a weekend of luggage, and the wife. the vette doesn't even come close. the 968 was the only car i could find that had the potential for what i was looking to have.

the vette doesn't come close to the way the blue 968 handles (handling and cornering being 2 very different animals). i didn't need the level of handling that i had with the MGB, but i did want sportscar handling. the vette corners very well, but feels very large and heavy. it's very sure-footed, but it certainly can't be called nimble. the new one is definitely the best so far, but still doesn't feel like what i was looking for. i did look at it though, just as i looked at the DB9, the jags, the mercedes, and just about every other car i could find. i may swap the DB9 for the SL550, but not for the 968. not sure, as i just bought a 2014 M series X5 turbo V8 for the wife, so the pressure is off there.

when considering power plants, i looked at everything i could find. in the end, the only thing that i could put in there that would not become a mess, was the 968 engine. i've built and driven 944 based V8 swaps and they drive like a vette (not a good thing). the hydroboost sucks and the powerplant and clutch were anything but smooth. gobs of torque, but you couldn't use it. fun to stomp on. crap around town. not what i was looking for. so, i rebuilt the 968 engine, beefed up the parts that needed it in there, and then boosted it. once properly tuned, and CARB certified, it was clear that it was the right decision. up until that point though, i wondered if i had done the right thing. now, there are over 40 other guys with the kits on their cars who all feel as i do. so, i guess it was the right thing after all.

Please, stop talking.

lol - The truth is inconvertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is..

The joke is on you here. You are displaying to the entire forum how out of touch with reality you are and your fascination with yourself is nauseating.

besides the fact that i have been doing this longer than most of the members here have even been alive, i have numbers and data on my side. what do you have? i'm still waiting for anything factual to support your argument. you rant and rave about a fictional low budget approach, but provide nothing to support it but inaccurate data and conjecture.

please, enlighten us. i would love to be able to hand that information to the next kid who does this, and creams somebody and gets sued or lands in jail.

lol, digging yourself even deeper ... this is really getting pathetic at this point.

also, for the record, i had forgotten that your 968 was a cabrio ... cabrio ... handling ... what was it i said about knowing what to start with before embarking on a project? haha

also, your "kit" .... well, suffice to say, folks if you actually believe that one ...

There are some topics that I personally hold as taboo and I know I'm not alone. It's the way I was raised. Talking about my money to impress while saying others don't have a pot to piss in flies in the face of proper manners as I understand them. This is my last interaction with you I hope as I feel dirty just reading your posts ripping on the community here. We can discuss costs of specific items and labor rates all day long but you've crossed a line from any hope of salvaging or earning respect.

Also taboo is "tooting your own horn." This is why I won't stand toe to toe to measure shafts with you. It's poor form of you to even ask. You're probably set in your ways and shrugging this insight off as my problem. I assure you, I don't encounter many folks so crass and obtuse. There are other venerable members here comfortable in their own skin and filth of mind. I don't think those few of you however vocal represent the community at large. I've seen plenty of good, helpful and encouraging people here including our host of which you are not.

I hope you find peace behind the wheel of your $150k 968 if not for how it drives but in knowing and taking comfort in the fact that you've spent more than anyone else... if that's what makes you feel whole and superior to others. What a sad and shallow existence if that's how you're left to measure yourself in the back slope of life.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...s/beerchug.gif

Well said, everyone on here needs to take any advice given by anyone with a grain of salt. Especially those who preach so much experience yet have not backed any of it up themselves.

Oh, and if you guys want to read about his coveted supercharger 'kit', sit down with a coffee and read this thread on RennList. Things get good around page 29, i think most of the original posts have been deleted though.

If you want the cliff-notes version, this about sums it up..

968 Supercharger Kit Development - Rennlist Discussion Forums

more completely incorrect information, and in fact libelous. i'll pass that one on to the attorney. thank you.

other than the same relief valve that the 951 uses, not one part of my kit has anything in common with that kit, and never did. the only thing they had in common was using a centrifugal supercharger, but not even the same manufacturer. since then, he has incorporated parts of my design into his in an attempt to get his working.

way back when he was developing his kit, we had him post on 968forums.com. i was a prime customer at the time. he chose to develop the kit in a manner which did not provide the things i and most people wanted. as a result of his refusal, i returned to the project i had sidelined years before. you can probably still dig some of that up from almost 10 years ago on 968.net

you can read all about it on 968forums.com

also, mine actually works.

does it now?

;)

yes - it does. it is also the only kit for the 968 that is CARB certified.

as for the rest, well, there are plenty of people who know the truth. sure, i'm an elitist snob. so what? i'm still right, and my business dealings are beyond reproach. there are hundreds of customers who will be happy to tell you all about my customer support and interaction.

back on topic, i would love to see proof of such a project having been completed, with the low budget numbers being bandied about, and not have it turn out to be a total turd. i've been reading an awful lot of threads about the conversions, and people are spending on average very close to what i have stated, when they are actually done. sure, a lot of them started out on the cheap. but they ended up having to upgrade a lot of stuff, and didn't actually add it up until the end.

let's just stick to facts and numbers.

thanks for the review, i had forgotten how little power that kit actually ended up making.

hundreds now?

wow, this is really getting ridiculous.

My ideas are probably unwanted here as they often are on conversion posts, but I don't care for the quality of anything mass produced by GM.
Porsche won the GTE-Pro, and GTE-Am classes at LeMans beating Corvette Racing in 2013, and in 2014 will probably take top honors in the P1 category. I have a feeling it's coming real soon. Seeing as how Porsche is statistically the most winning endurance racing car manufacturer in history. Over 20,000 wins, and 16 overall wins at LeMans. The 919 just took the fastest lap at Paul Ricard this week.
You can quote weight differences, power output, or whatever else you want to quote about the LS series engines, but they don't impress some of us. They will never be a Porsche engine. With money and development a Porsche can outperform a Corvette any day. 2013 LeMans is proof of that. Maybe not a tired old 944, or 968, but with development you could have a very fast car with a 944 Turbo, S2, or 968. Auto Haus had a 185mph 951 in the 1990's.
Next, something nobody ever mentions in these V8 superiority swap arguments is that the slant four of the 924/944/968 engines was designed to counter the weight of the driver on the right side of the car. Porsche engineers everything for a purpose. When you slap a V8 in a 944 you are not only changing the weight, but taking away dynamic handling balance of the car.
Therefore, a 951Turbo, S2, or 968 engine is in my book the only acceptable swap for a 944.
You can argue with me until you are blue in the face, but none of you are Porsche engineers. Also, nobody at Chevrolet is a Porsche engineer either. 2013 LeMans also showed that.
That is my .2 cents worth.
You are doing a Porsche 944 a disservice by going for the cheapest power plant swap that makes the most horsepower. The question is how long will it make that hp? Will it run 24 hour races as the stock 944 engines did in the 1980's? It's doubtful.
My partner and I spend every spare dime that we make on our Porsches, and I make them my own, but if I couldn't afford to modify my cars, I would drive them as is. I'll lose to new Corvettes with pride because in 1986 my 944 would tear a Corvette a new butthole on the race track, and well prepared 944 race cars still win constantly in SCCA racing.

That's a well stated position but this is a thread for the decision beyond that discussion. There are plenty of options out there... many not V8 by shape. Some slant 4's have been mentioned that would maintain the dynamic balance you mention (although I believe the tilt is more to lower the center of gravity and for the powerplant into a flatter space between the ground and hood - dynamic balance for LHD racers being a happy coincidence). These examples, the 4G63 and Audi/VW 4 cyl turbo charged examples are very popular with much stronger performance aftermarket support than the OEM Porsche engines enjoy. They're arguably simpler designs (Vw/Audi with no balance shaft), and plentiful so most mechanics will have seen them. We're not all using our cars solely for racing or to vicariously jersey over in honor of Porsche racing... some simply don't follow that portion of the hobby. Those folks probably won't consider racing heritage when faced with a huge rebuild bill and lowly stock HP awaiting them at the outcome.

I also have some background with DSMs, and as much as I love the 4G63, I don't see it doing well in this application.

1.) I dont' think the cam gears would fit under the hood without a severe lean to the engine
1a) I'm not an engine designer, but would there need to be special considerations beyond a custom oil pickup/pan?

2.) The waterneck is on the wrong side of the head; it would need a LONG water pipe. Doable? Yes. Preferable? no.

You mean to say you don't want to add the hump to the hood too? ;)

The shorter 4 cyls do sit further back so there is more room due to less slope of the hood. You might get away with it. The water neck on the bell housing side is also present on the vw/Audi 1.8t. There is space beneath the OEM outlet on the Audi head where you could relocate it with some machine work to create more space and blocking off the OEM port. Similar to the Mitsubishi, you would possibly need to whittle a solution out of a block of aluminum.

Found this from a 924 swap in the UK:
http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/...ps60656d08.jpg

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/...ps63043202.jpg

This is the vw/Audi 1.8T...

lol, in every way the LS series of engines are more powerful, smaller, lighter, and more reliable then our nearing 30 year old power-plants. and if you try to build a turbo engine to put the numbers down that an LS engine does .... it only gets worse for the Porsche power plant.

what is with folks on these boards .... seriously ... delusionally nuts. so brand obsessed they can't see past that crest of Stuttgart up there ...

Don't get me wrong, I love the DSM hood bump. But I dont think it would look quite right on a 944 ;)

Another 1.8t 944 in New Hampshire that is raced:

Lemons 944 build (Team Got Wood)+ testing videos :: motorgeek.com

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-E...-LNES12-UG.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-c...o/DSCN1640.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-J...o/DSCN1641.JPG



Looks like they tried to race and then just tossed the Porsche engine out after two identical catastrophic failures. Racing heritage doesn't mean jack to people who actually want to drive their cars hard and have fun.

Holy crap!
I could put a fridge in there.

Mount a giant Roots blower in front of that engine and make the 1.8 feel like an 8.1...

You are assuming everyone wants to "drive their cars hard and have fun". Well yes! but we are a diversified bunch here, some seek perfection, some originality, some just like to be unique, it's all good. If that's all that motivates you then that is fine, throw that V8 in there, it will do the job very nicely. Let's face it most racecars including F1 fit other engines in their cars, Lotus (Renault, Ford), Mclaren (Mercedes, Honda), etc., they are all fit for purpose.

I would love to build a high compression 3.0L na with standalone, direct ignition, dry sump and ITB's. It would cost a lot and probably be unreliable and need constant tweaking, but that's what motivates me.

I think it's good that we are a diversified bunch, it doesn't mean one person is stupid doing it one way when they can do it another way cheaper, better and faster, it just means that that is the way he or she wants to do it.

Check my wording again. You're assuming that I'm assuming; I clearly stated differently in the comment you quoted. Just want to make sure we're clear and you're not putting words in my mouth.

"You are assuming everyone wants to "drive their cars hard and have fun". Well yes!"

Lol, nope, not putting words in your mouth, actually agreeing with you :)

If we ever happen to meet up, I owe you a few beers. One of the best posts Ive ever seen on here.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...s/beerchug.gif

There are a few guys on Rennlist who have built some offset crank i4 Porsche motors very cheaply which are circa U.S. 450-500whp. I believe they make a strong argument for those of us that actually want to drive our cars with Porsche motors in them. Nobody is wearing Rose coloured glasses here. We don't think the i4 P motor is the be all and end all. Some of us just prefer to stick with the brand and improve upon it. If there are others that don't give a damn about this, then they have options. The V8 is clearly the most popular and running a lazy n/a V8 does make sense in terms of service costs and general reliability, however so do our motors if they're taken care of. My car is currently representing the model and marque quite well and lapping at about Cup Car speeds. I take a great joy by achieving this and keeping with the original layout. Don't blame people for going with the swap though, just doesn't 'sound' right to me. Purely subjective of course.

Is it possible to put another Porsche engine in these like a 2000's model cayman or boxster engine just to keep it Porsche and make it newer or up to date.

I'd like to chime in and say thanks to those who weighed in on the Rover V8. Years ago I'd seen some pics of some rather expensively done up 944's in the UK with the swap, so it was what immediately came to mind. Seems to only be a viable alternative to a 'Vette engine if you're willing or want do have a "built" engine instead of simply trying to get it to fit.

If performance is your goal, it really is hard to beat the lightweight modern 'Vette powerplants.

I may be taking apart/rebuilding/upgrading the engine in my '84 944 mostly for the experience acquired along the way. Going into it - I do not see it as a sensible thing to do, but frankly, if we were all sensible, we'd live and work in the same place, and not drive at all.

As for the post made above mine, you'd want to be good with a cutter/welder. :)

Yes, it could be done, probably best to cut the rear out of the car and put in a subframe, locating the engine in the back half of the car. I doubt the width of a horizontally opposed engine would fit in the space of a midly slanted inline 4. You could of course, go super wide body with spreading out your strut towers with totally new fab work. Not impossible, but perhaps not practical. :)

The 944 kinda is what it is if you want to stick to Porsche powerplants. The 951 will be a lot faster for similar cost.

Rover V8 swap (another 924 in the UK):

http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?t=568605

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...arterhigh2.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...8/IMG_1036.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...ayandfront.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/i...8/IMG_1032.jpg

Looks like the intake manifold is a bit too tall...

i messed around with a couple of buick and oldsmobile 3.5s (from which the rover was derived). interesting engine. not good at high rpms though. too flexible. a girdle is needed. the olds was better than the buick, due to the head design. they had a few different compression ratios too, so you could mess around a bit there. very lightweight engine, at 302#. not a huge amount of torque, but not bad in a lightweight car. the rover engine has a better rear main seal than either of the predecessors, and is a stronger alloy. all of the engines are a bit tall though.

lolz omg... so much fail, in such a tiny little post...

An Audi 5cyl swap:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...t/bilen/45.jpg

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/...motor_shot.jpg

And another:

http://www.944-20v.nl/running1.jpg

http://www.944-20v.nl/P1000403.JPG

http://www.944-20v.nl/running2.jpg

Not even a Mother could love that abomination.

What is it with people who can't read? I said "Maybe not a tired old 944 or 968, but with development you could have a very fast car." Also if the GM LS engines are so great why can't Corvette Racing seem to consistently beat Porsche?
All the while people keep saying that the 911 platform is "outdated", and "old technology". I guess it's not outdated enough that a rear engined car can't beat a Corvette on a race track.
The question is what is it with people who can't read statistics and realize that GM hasn't done much of anything in endurance racing? In fact, Corvettes didn't do ANYTHING until they stole the transaxle platform from the Porsche 924/944/968/928 series. They were the worst handling sports cars made until then.
Also, show me a Corvette that will make 1000hp and I'll show you Porsche 911's that will make 1200-1400 with two less cylinders. Not to mention Porsche had a 240mph race car in 1970. There is no comparison.
Also this is a Porsche forum. So if you don't know the history of Porsche, or say Ruf. Maybe you shouldn't be spitting nonsense here.
The Audi 5 cylinder swap looks cool. The 944 body was built at Audi Neckarsulm anyway. lol They used to put Rover V8's in Triumph TR7's. So Triumph responded with the TR8 which was a TR7 with a production Rover V8.

Are you aware of the racing record the C5R had? In any case, this thread isn't about Porsche racing victories vs. Corvette, it's about potential engine swaps from other vehicles (fyi - the LS platform is in a lot of Chevy vehicles, not just Corvette race cars).

Seems from left field - did someone say the 911 platform was outdated in this thread? Or anywhere? All of the Porsche complaints I've read lately come from too much development and everyone wanting a simpler, more responsive car (dang electronics and PDK transmissions and such).

Again, C5R and C6R.

Which Porsche 'stole' from Lancia, Skoda, Ferrari, and Alfa?

With turbo(s). Poor comparison, and truly irrelevant as logistically swapping a Turbo flat 6 into a 924/944 would take significantly more work than a LS.

Looking eternally to the past and at heritage will never garner innovation, and will ultimately result in inadequacy.

It was okay for Triumph to do it, but not Porsche?

I'm just a young whipper-snapper, but spent more time as a child at PCA events than at little league. While I appreciate Porsche history and technology, no company, person, engineer, or engineering team is infallible. Furthermore, no one beats father time. As the days go by, our vehicles become more and more outdated. From a historical standpoint that's fine. And I wouldn't advocate someone putting a LS swap into a 944 cup (or for that matter a Silver Rose). However, on a dime-a-dozen early 944 or non-special 944 turbo (like mine), I don't see the tragedy.

Regarding those Audi swaps, the quality of the builds done in Sweden and Finland always impresses me.

Looks like the black one lost the vacuum booster. I would guess from the lack of master cylinder in the engine bay they went with a pedal box inside the cabin. Would be interesting to see more pictures if anyone can find them.