It might be time for a non-v8 engine swap
 

I have a hate love relationship with my 944 and right now it has a couple big issues that need to be addressed - gets hots after about 30 min of driving, smokes at high rpm, and the entire electrical system is riddled with gremlins.

The motor could pretty easily be freshened up and I could go through the electrical system circuit by circuit addressing problems, but I would still have an underpowered car that doesn't speak to me. I love the chassis and styling, but the engine just doesn't have any soul.

I don't have any interest in a v8 swap, but I do want 250-300 hp from an inline or narrow v configuration. The Audi 7a, 3b, or AAN make a ton of sense, but are getting really tough to find. I've also tossed around boosting a vr6, but I'm thinking more and more about a honda or nissan engine. They are cheap and plentiful out of Japan and the road to power is easy and costs nothing. I realize there are major things to sort through - bellhousing, clutch, electrical, mounts, etc. I've done several major swaps and fab work doesn't scare me. Am I alone in this, or are there others that would be interested in something alone these lines?

Nissan V-6
The one in my Frontier Nismo is 4 liter, 265 hp.....
120,000 miles and still solid
Could be a bit tight though....

I get more feelings of bastardization with a Japanese engine in the 944 than an American motor... Dunno why.
Japanese engines are well made but tend to be gutless in my experience which is no improvement over the 944 engine.
A Buick 3.8 may be the best swap option there is IMO... the Audi is novelty but it's still ancient.

I've thought long and hard about a Nissan VQ or a GM L67 3.8. The problem they both have is that they are too wide to retain the stock brake setup and that adds to the complexity of the whole swap. Keeping it straight or really narrow makes things a lot simpler. I was actually looking at Ecotec and Zetec variants a little bit ago to see which takes boost the best.

VQ35 swap would be sick. Friend of mine has a G35 that just wrecked, 40k miles... I'm trying to talk him into getting a 944. If he could buy back his car from the insurance company and swap the motor, it would be perfect.

What about a Dodge SRT-4 engine? The intake manifold is a bit goofy, but, might there be a way to address this?
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/h...gineresize.jpg
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/h...ownengine2.jpg

It would be a waste of time IMO to swap in an engine with smaller displacement than the 944 engine. What the car needs desperately is torque, which is almost entirely gained by displacement when not in boost if you're looking at an engine with breathing assistance.

One guy on rennlist is sticking the current VW i-5 into his 951 which is pretty cool IMO. But again I wouldn't go anysmaller.

I would like to see someone plink a GM atlas 4 cylinder 2.9l with VVt into a 44... big torque and they are a very solid engine

I think with all the 944NAs out there, it'd be great to have a swap option that produced more power than the stock 2.5NA and cost less than a rebuild of the stock motor. Ideally you'd want to retain the stock brake and steering setup and be able to use the OEM exhaust manifolds or cheap headers. If you have to go with a lot of custom parts you might as well do the GM V8 for which the parts and knowledge are already developed.

Something plentiful and cheap like the GM 3.8L v6 would even have upgrade potential. I can't think of much that would be cheap and common and from an RWD platform. The Toyota 3.4L V6 is a great motor but they probably cost a lot. Maybe a Ford Cologne V6? The 4.0L is probably easy to find in an Explorer or Ranger with a bad transmission for a few hundred bucks.

The displacement myth needs to be fully debunked. With the right mix of boost, timing, compression, and octane torque AND horsepower are easy. The problem is that most people never experience a properly setup MODERN turbo, supercharged, or twin charged setup.

Thats what I'm thinking. I don't really have anything against the stock engine, but its going to cost me way over a grand to bring it back to as new condition and it will still be really underpowered by today's standards. I've worked through several oddball projects and think there may be a market for an off the shelf used engine that can be had for $500 used, a $150 clutch, and a $250 installation kit. At the surface it doesn't look that great, but if I can find the right engine it could a lot of missing character and boost power :)

I've driven plenty of cars, of all engine types, displacements and fuels... The big ones are always nicer to drive. Boost helps allot but only when you're in the throttle enough to get boost. I'm talking about the time where you're in traffic or coming off stoplights and the 944 series of all varieties excepting the 89na and S2 are gutless.

The only thing that differentiates the 2.7 from the 2.5 is bore and intake ports, and a little bit of compression.... Yet it makes about 25% more torque at any engine speed.

A smaller engine is completely pointless in a car that sees normal street driving.

If it's your Sunday morning toy or just for fun then have at it with your 1.8t or neon engines...

The expensive parts in a motor aren't the donor motor. It' the oil pan, exhaust, clutch/bellhousing, and brakes.

An inline motor may address many of those, but a custom oil pan may still be needed. The LS swaps at least have a proven path around those issues. The VW I-5 might be interesting if the oil pan issue can be solved. It has some interesting upgrade paths.

For cost, it may be hard to beat a truck 4.8LS with the cheap TPC manifold, used C5 bellhousing, and picking up a few used or cast off part on the 944 Hybrids forum.

why wouldnt you put in an LS series?

The Audi inline 5 turbo or the Nissan SR20 DET were mentioned as good options in a similar recent thread.

I have seen a few Subie engines in other porsches (914s)... and having had a 2.0L that put out 300 hp in the STi trim... another 4 cyl option is tempting in the 944 bay.

I imagine it's the hardened transmission that also needs to be considered though.

Happy hunting.

True enough, but I guess I don't see the 944 as a "normal" street car. Mine only gets driven a couple times a month when my wife is picking up and dropping off the kids. And even if it were a daily for me my commute sees no traffic and a sizable portion of the drive is beautiful winding roads through the hills of Southeast Indiana.

I guess the LS just doesn't speak to me. Its an easy road to awesome power, great reliability, and its a proven solution to many of the 944's problems. I don't have a good reason why, but I just don't want one.

I would love the Audi engine and the great thing about it is that there is a porsche part number for the bellhousing. The problem with the Audi engines is that they are getting really old and are starting to get hard to find. The SR20 is an interesting piece, but I'm finding that they really aren't the engine everyone has made them out to be. My cousin has a beautiful S14 with a built SR20 and while he makes great power it hasn't been as easy as the internet makes it out to be.

Reality is, the cheap swap outside of the S2/968 engine IS the v8. You do the 4.8 as mentioned and you can probably get it done for around what it would cost to do a 968 motor swap. Its the cheap swap because its the one the community coalesced around and developed, you don't have to waste money figuring out how to make it happen because its been documented and detailed. You can't say that about any of the other engine swaps.

I mean what else do you have? there is the audi option, which requires a hard to find bellhousing and has no readily available standalone engine harness like the LS does so its harder to integrate into the cars electrical system. The VR6 has the same problem. The oil pan is not right for the 944 also IIRC.

There is one shop that worked up an RB swap kit last year that i have yet to see anyone do, but if they did they end up with a JDM motor never used in the US so parts are less fun to get.

The VQ would be cool, but its new territory and as such needs development to work, not cheap.

Subie motors are likely too wide and suffer from price inflation, every one thinks their 200k mile beat to **** WRX is worth 8k. They get hurt a lot and so its hard to find a good core that doesn't need to be gone through. Not a great option also because you end up with the same amount of power you would have gotten from a 968 swap (225 vs 236).

Any SR20's in the US have suffered the wrath of the drift kids and are usually stuck inside an overpriced beat down 240. Not a great option.

I doubt that a complete SRT-4 motor is easy or cheap to get as most SRT-4's still sell for 9k+. Also beat down.

XSchop has made the parts to do a 1uz-fe swap from the lexus SC/LS400 cars, this is a tempting swap.

Japanese HP is from small ponies not real horses,the v6 3.8 Buick in various forms is a cheap and easy conversion and goes for ever ,my 3.8 ran for ever and very good on fuel for the heavy car it was in, the 944 is lighter.

1.8T:

924Board.org :: View topic - 1.8T 924

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/...ps60656d08.jpg

12A/13B:

924Board.org :: View topic - Project RX924 begins!

Audi I6:

924Board.org :: View topic - Straight six engine in a 924

The 2.4L SRT4 engine is related to the older 2.5L engines from Chrysler and is pretty stout. RWD bellhousings are available which would make adaptation slightly easier. The 2.4L shares parts with the 2.0's and 2.4's used in other Chrysler products like the Neon, Stratus and the PT Cruiser as well as the Mitsubishi's that use the 420a (same motor and cylinder head, just reversed flow with the same bolt pattern for the intake and exhaust). So there are different intake options available as well as different exhaust options to choose the config you'd like.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...s/100_0650.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r...ture001-16.jpg

speak to you?

what a load.

so instead your gonna mess around for thousands of dollars, and possibly years of time, to fit in an engine, that is less powerful, less reliable, and worse gas millage. because 420+ hp doesn't speak to you like the engine out of a bro-cruiser "i want people to think i know about cars, but i actually don't know anything about cars" G35/37.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...ce-Nod-Yes.gif

Well, don't you live up to your screen name. Stop trolling, you've already trolled flash968, I think you've done enough for a while. The dude doesn't want an LSx in his car, its his car, let him make that decision, eh? Don't like it? Build your own and enjoy it, dude wasn't looking for opinions, just engine swap ideas that aren't LSx-based.

The LS swap for sure looks like the way to go if you want to exceed modded Turbo power (or perhaps achieve it for less money integrated over time, himprove reliability, etc.)

It's not a good option for people of modest means who want to get down the road in a 944 with less hassles under the hood and perhaps S2/968/stock turbo levels of power. There might not be a good solution to that problem, at present I say:

1 - Sell whatever you got
2 - Buy the car you want
3 - Trust me, it's better and cheaper than trying to convert something

There are a lot of people who feel invested in their 944 with nice cosmetics or some sentimental value [Joel says get over it] and would just like a bit more scoot and to not fret about the skinny 8v timing belt. If you could get a LeSabre engine in there for $2k and not a ton of fabrication and swap time and still have a nice car with power brakes, steering, AC, etc. that'd be great.

The LS swap is not cheap, the motors are getting expensive and the truck motors need some extra parts, the costs add up fast. The swap parts are not cheap and you need to engineer and fab a few things like power brakes, AC lines, etc.

I still want a V8 swap or similar. My supercharged 968 has great power and torque but with the top down the blower whine is a bit irritating and showy, and I fret about the short piston skirts and high compression. It is easy to scuff the bores with bad gas on a hot day and too much right foot. It's also not cheap to get a supercharged 968 on the road.

If I give up on open-air driving the 928 is a fine car for me, or I can just enjoy stock 968 power with the top down, which I have been doing lately up to a point.

-Joel.

the older 3.8 is a very heavy wide 90 deg motor
only the turbo versions make power
and they ain't cheap

the later 3800S3 with a blower is a better cheaper lighter motor but still wide at 90 deg
the 3.9 based on the 60deg v6 is a better newer motor with 240hp stock no boost
and has modern alloy heads so much less weight
there was a DOHC 3.4 4 valve v6 motor also in 60 deg that can be turboed by GM
they have alloy heads and some aftermarket bits too

the newer 4's eco-tec come in SC or turbo stock and are very lite

ford has the DI and/or eco-boost 4 or 6 motors

what about an audi 5 turbo the rally guys got real power out of them

If that is your driving reality with the 944 then as I said, go for it with whatever engine floats your boat.

I DD my car through open mountain roads and the worst traffic known to mankind (LA 405) and having to rev to 3000+ to get anywhere gets old after a while.

It is my DD because no other car "fits me" like this one does (in terms of physical space and driving enjoyment).

I'm saving my pennies for a stroker to give me more grunt when not boosting...

Whatever engine you do choose you have to consider if you have local smog regulations...in CA I can't do the 4.8 but would love to...

Dont know if they are available in the USa but the Renault 2 litre slant 4 cylinder turbo motor out of the Megane Sport makes 225 or 265 BHP from a compact light all aluminium motor with variable valve timing that was built by Mecachrome(they make the Renault Formula 1 engines so I think they know what they are doing).

Well... I respectfully disagree and not just because I'm in progress with the 1.8T. You have to look at the numbers to see why.

Side point: The 1.9L VW TDI engine puts out insane low rpm torque with mods. Stock turbo with a tune over 250lbs/ft by 2500RPM. Add ball bearing, sequential turbos, cams etc and the lid comes off those numbers.

Now, as for displacement theory for torque on gasoline engines... don't forget efficiency (FLOW) in the calculation. 2.5L of displacement doesn't automatically mean more torque than a 1.8L. Here's a 944 dyno from Lindsey on top and a 1.8T VW tuned below. The black overlay on the VW dyno is stock cam and the red is the Integrated Engineering IECVA1 street/strip profile on the same engine. Compare torque between Porsche and VW. Stock cam, you're not losing any torque to the Porsche tune at low RPM. Then you're at 400lbs/ft at 4000 RPM - goodbye Porsche.

With the street/strip aftermarket cam you lose a lot of torque to the Porsche tune until the turbo spools up. Another side note: The VW engine has stroker options (forged ABA crankshaft from the 2.0L engines from 93-95 are preferred) as well if torque under 3K RPM is at all important... you just have to pay for custom pistons that reposition the wrist pin.

http://www.lindseyracing.com/pics/LR-944-MAX-CHIPLL.gif

1.8T VW:
http://blog.intengineering.com/wp-co.../10/IECVA1.png

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<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/JLEsAgGCkGU" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="480" width="640"></iframe>

Edit: Stock 1.8T dyno and a flash (chip tune) dyno below. Shows 1.8T has more torque than 2.5L in stock form:
http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/pr...8t_stage_i.gif

My 944 is my everyday ride. Best overall solution for that usage is, buy an S2.

The 1.8 is impressive with those numbers, but the thing about dynos is that they're done at WOT.
How much torque is a 1.8L putting out at the throttle position you typically leave a stop light at?

LOL. You choose throttle position for how you want to leave the light with any engine. Are you seriously arguing that you would need an extra 1/8th throttle potentially on a smaller engine that produces more torque? LOL.

The 1.8 isn't making more torque at 1000RPM than a 2.5L at the type of throttle coming off a light in a normal driving environment.

I'm talking about the gas you give it while slipping the clutch to get moving and accelerate from there. Maybe its not a big deal to you, but having to bury your foot into the carpet to get up a hill is not fun. The 2.5L struggles to get moving easily enough on a hill start as is...

You think you have to floor a 1.8L 20v turbo to move? Remember now, they were original equipment in far larger cars than the 944 is. The Audi A4 Quattro wagons came with this engine. It's a whole lot more car than the 944 weight-wise to move around. The argument doesn't work in your favor... the 1.8T produces more torque. Period.

"The Audi A4 Avant 1.8 T is one of the B6 model family from Audi.
The Audi A4 Avant 1.8 T's engine is a turbocharged petrol, 1.8 litre, double overhead camshaft 4 cylinder with 5 valves per cylinder. This powerplant develops 161 bhp (163 PS/120 kW) of power at 5700 rpm, and maximum torque of 225 N·m (166 lb·ft/22.9 kgm) at 1950-4700 rpm.
A 5 speed manual 'box transfers the power to the driven wheels.
Its stated kerb weight is 1430 kg.
It is claimed to attain a top speed of 225 km/h, or 140 mph, officially stated fuel consumption is 11.3/6.4/8.2 l/100km urban/extra-urban/combined, and carbon dioxide emissions are 197 g/km."

"The Porsche 944 is a rear wheel drive motor vehicle, with its engine placed in the front, and a 2 door coupé bodyshell.
The 2.5 litre engine is a naturally aspirated, single overhead camshaft, 4 cylinder that produces 161 bhp (163 PS/120 kW) of power at 5800 rpm, and maximum torque of 205 N·m (151 lb·ft/20.9 kgm) at 3000 rpm.
A 5 speed manual transmission supplies the power to the driven wheels.
Having a stated kerb weight of 1180 kg, the Porsche 944 covers the 0-100 km/h benchmark in 8.30 seconds and the standing kilometre in 29.1 seconds.
Maximum claimed speed is 222 km/h, or 138 mph, stated fuel consumption is 7.0/8.7/11.4 l/100km 90 km/h / 120 km/h / urban cycle per DIN 70030/1."

The reason those numbers seem impossible (max torque below 2000 RPM) for the 1.8T engine is because of the small turbo charger. Stock K03S turbo on the left, Garret GT3076R on the right. Turbo lag? Not with this little snail. Boost is nearly instantaneous and it builds gobs of torque.

http://podi.ca/winstontemp/blitzkrieg/IMG_2772.JPG

I figured this post would draw some trolls out from under their bridges...

The 1.8T may fit the bill - there's certainly plenty of upgrade potential and they are fairly plentiful. The core problem is that I don't know what I want, but I know that I'm tired of the nickel and dime problems. I don't mind taking the car deep under the knife if it'll come out better on the other side. The other side of the coin is that I could build a new custom wiring harness for the stock engine and freshen it up for boost for about the same money and less custom work. If I could pump the car up to 250 hp with a mild turbo setup that might change my whole perception of the car.

Best medicines for trolls are cold hard facts.

Personal choice if you want to try with the stock Porsche engine or not. You can tune any engine out there for more HP. How do you personally feel about the engine you choose to work with and do you value the reputation for how it performs? Choose one that makes sense to you. I also considered a turbo on the stock 2.5L early on. It makes sense on some levels.

If that's all your after, 968 swap your car, it will get you close and its hell of a lot fun to drive. The 1.8T nickels and dimes too, any core 1.8t motor you get should be gone through anyhow.

Lap, how much will you spend in total on your 1.8T swap when its done in your estimation?

I got a bit carried away and snowballed over budget so I admit I'm a bad example for economics of the swap. There is a better example in New Hampshire where the guys threw the engine in and went racing in Lemons for I think under $500. The donor vehicles are fairly common and cheap.

I have the folder in front of me here... burning gas, squashing bugs maybe $6g for my example. I could have found a younger engine to start with... the overbore starts the snowball and then the next thing you know you've spent $4500 making it 600HP+ capable. I had difficulty resisting with incremental upgrades that were within reach for a few bucks more.

If I had just dropped the engine in instead of going through it and forging/boring/modifying and also left the fuel system alone then I would have saved around $4400. The cap is then around 400hp (stock rods are the weak link) which isn't too shabby. I'm not sure if the aged, stock 944 fuel system would have kept up around that level. The cost slope is a little different depending on what your end goals are. 400hp on a 1.8T is a lot cheaper than 500hp+.

1JZ
320-330bhp right off
... then boost it!

How about a Toyota Supra Turbo's 2JZ-GTE? You can ditch the factory twin turbo setup with one giant turbo, tune the engine to about 700-1000 hp and your car will be unstoppable! :D

Here's a photo of an 1100 hp Supra's engine at Cars and Coffee. This would look great in a 944's engine bay :D

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1400544697.jpg

I've got a buddy with a mk3 supra that is 2j swapped with a big single. He putting a very conservative 600 hp to the wheels - its a monster, but it isn't any fun for the driving I like to do. Since starting this thread I've done a lot of soul searching about what it is that I want. The list is simple:

Light - preferably at or under 1000 lbs
150-300 hp but it must be small displacement and high revs
No top whatsoever

I'm leaning toward building a one off reverse trike. I really like the styling of the rayvolution EVO. I just need to get the 944 cleaned up and freshened up so I can get decent money out of it. http://s1.dmcdn.net/r2vB/x240-PDe.jpg

I'd look at an Exocet. Miata running gear and subframes so its reliable and has tons of aftermarket support not too mention being a known quantity. V8 swaps are already in progress using the Miata V8 swap parts.

A chassis that has been designed for safety and service, built by enthusiasts who are also mechanical engineers.

Look at the thread that was started by one of their engineers and has helped sell more cars than nearly any salesman has:

GRM Exclusive Reveal: Exocet Spec-A: Grassroots Motorsports forum: Grassroots Motorsports

http://exomotive.com/wp-content/uplo...MEV_Exocet.jpg

Exocet Turbo takes on Ariel Atom

I read this and thought: Hayabusa Turbo... would make a good trike.