Quick questions about hated LS1

[Pipemaster]

Iv decided to go with an LS1 swap for my car. I know the basic idea around it and i have a lot more resources to help with a swap of that nature. My 2.5 is becoming too much of a hassle but i love the 944 too much. This wasnt just a snap decision. I had been thinking about it since i got my car.

But my question is, will a V8 from a chevy avalanche work the same as an LS?

My neighbor has one that he said he would sell to me for around $200. And its from an 03 avalanche which makes me think its some kind of LS. I believe im going to keep my 2.5 for awhile and figure out something to do with it. Maybe a disassemble and slight rebuild. Then ill sell it. Not sure yet

[Pipemaster]

I did a little more digging into that engine in particular. Its an LM7. So pretty much everything is the same except the intake from what im reading

[v2rocket_aka944]

block-wise basically yes the same for engine mounts + accessories.
heads are all over the map with port shape + chamber size. they're all pretty good though with their original blocks.

lm7 is 5.3L? you can put a hotter cam (LS6/LS2 is good and cheap) and a car intake to match your heads (based on port shape, LS6 should work with lM7 heads)

do some more reading, there is a LOT of stuff involved doing the swap.

[Pipemaster]

Originally Posted by v2rocket_aka944

block-wise basically yes the same for engine mounts + accessories.
heads are all over the map with port shape + chamber size. they're all pretty good though with their original blocks.

lm7 is 5.3L? you can put a hotter cam (LS6/LS2 is good and cheap) and a car intake to match your heads (based on port shape, LS6 should work with lM7 heads)

do some more reading, there is a LOT of stuff involved doing the swap.

Oh i know there is. Thats why im trying to get all the info i can get before i make any moves. Have been thinking about it for awhile though. I was also told that the NA transmission has weak 1st and 2nd gears only. That the rest of them should be able to handle the power. Thats the complete opposite of everything iv read here. But this is from someone who has done an LS1 swap that i heard this from. The LM7 heads looks huge compared to the LS1 head. The truck intake is going to have to go away and be replaced with LS6 manifold and injectors. But yes, the LM7 is a 5.3. Im pretty sure there was a 6.0 version as well though

[Pipemaster]

Everything for this swap can be easily sourced/fabricated down here in the south for mere pocket change. The LS is one of the most popular engine series here in general. It has a ridiculous following in my area. Im pretty sure i can get everything, give or take a few things, for a total under $4000

[Jfrahm]

Hated? Not really, I suppose there are always a few, but in general I think it's just way more work and expense and trouble than most people want to mess with.

I'd really like to do one on my stock 968 Cab but I do not want a kit car / rolling project car experience when it's all done. I'd want to take someone out on a date and not have to explain a bunch of stuff about why the car is melting something under the hood or why the footwells are so damn hot or whatever. I'd like the finished product to operate like a stock production car, just get in it and drive, no day-to-day issues, no explaining stuff to passengers.

The all aluminum 5.3L intrigued me as it could be a good match to the 968 with stock gearing, it'd be a lot like the rev-happy 4.2L in my S8. However the prices of those shot up from what I have seen.

Good luck, keep us posted.
-Joel.

[v2rocket_aka944]

you estimate $4k, figure you're going to spend $10k. just how it works out. lots of things pop up they don't cover in the swap manual, or not talked about on forums.

presently i have an "infamous" blue lS7 968 parked in my yard on loan from its very vocal owner.
i think he's into it about $50k, and i'd call it about 3/4 done. it's fast though.

gearbox - skip the NA entirely, the whole things are glass.
my original N/A R/P shredded teeth while cruising at 70mph on the highway on a road trip. with an early NA engine (143 hp!) turning it.
not beaten on, no launches or donuts or whatever, just a cruising street car. i was driving 80 miles overall, at about the 65 mile mark it just POPPED, i was able to make it to the shoulder but the tires were locked up (pieces of gear jammed between the teeth).

if you want a V8, get a turbo/S2/968 gearbox.

[jcommin]

Techno Duck is a guy who did an LS swap on his 951. He posted here and the work he did to his car is well documented. You might want to do a search and look for his posts. He is very knowledgeable.

[Pipemaster]

Originally Posted by Jfrahm

Hated? Not really, I suppose there are always a few, but in general I think it's just way more work and expense and trouble than most people want to mess with.

I'd really like to do one on my stock 968 Cab but I do not want a kit car / rolling project car experience when it's all done. I'd want to take someone out on a date and not have to explain a bunch of stuff about why the car is melting something under the hood or why the footwells are so damn hot or whatever. I'd like the finished product to operate like a stock production car, just get in it and drive, no day-to-day issues, no explaining stuff to passengers.

The all aluminum 5.3L intrigued me as it could be a good match to the 968 with stock gearing, it'd be a lot like the rev-happy 4.2L in my S8. However the prices of those shot up from what I have seen.

Good luck, keep us posted.
-Joel.

Oh i know what you mean. Your describing every swap ever for an MG. Just a huge pain. Although for this one, everything seems straight forward. In my mind the hardest thing to do is getting the old engine out

[Pipemaster]

Originally Posted by v2rocket_aka944

you estimate $4k, figure you're going to spend $10k. just how it works out. lots of things pop up they don't cover in the swap manual, or not talked about on forums.

presently i have an "infamous" blue lS7 968 parked in my yard on loan from its very vocal owner.
i think he's into it about $50k, and i'd call it about 3/4 done. it's fast though.

gearbox - skip the NA entirely, the whole things are glass.
my original N/A R/P shredded teeth while cruising at 70mph on the highway on a road trip. with an early NA engine (143 hp!) turning it.
not beaten on, no launches or donuts or whatever, just a cruising street car. i was driving 80 miles overall, at about the 65 mile mark it just POPPED, i was able to make it to the shoulder but the tires were locked up (pieces of gear jammed between the teeth).

if you want a V8, get a turbo/S2/968 gearbox.

Well the engine is about $400
Wiring harness/ECU is about $100
Fabricated mounts about $25
Bellhousing and all that is where im going to have to do some looking.
As with cooling. But this swap isnt going to be pretty. Its not going to be a $60000 car after its done. Its going to be a down and dirty car thatll hopefully last me awhile. But the transaxle is a weak point. Are S2 transaxles direct swaps? The LM7 is a little weaker than its LS1 and LS3 counterparts

[Nowanker]

Some truck/SUV engines were cast iron block, some aluminum. Consensus says about 60lb penalty for iron.
LS1 and LS2 heads bolt on to anything LS. LS3 heads flow better, but only fit on larger bore blocks (LS3 and LS7)
LS7 heads need larger bores still, LS7 or bored/sleeved blocks only.
LS3 and LS7 intake manifolds are required for their respective heads.
Sweet engine, and performance parts are essentially free when compared to anything German.

[Pipemaster]

Originally Posted by Nowanker

Some truck/SUV engines were cast iron block, some aluminum. Consensus says about 60lb penalty for iron.
LS1 and LS2 heads bolt on to anything LS. LS3 heads flow better, but only fit on larger bore blocks (LS3 and LS7)
LS7 heads need larger bores still, LS7 or bored/sleeved blocks only.
LS3 and LS7 intake manifolds are required for their respective heads.
Sweet engine, and performance parts are essentially free when compared to anything German.

Yeah its a cast iron block. Apparently still pretty close in weight to the stock NA from the 944. Im thinking im going to get an LS6 drive by cable intake. I dont feel like going through the trouble of a drive by wire harness and adding that to my tune bill. Im also going to keep the stock radiator. Maybe different fans but ill have to look into that more. As this car will not be tracked. Im doing it for future reliability and ease of maintenance. This swap has little bearing on more power. My max speed very rarely exceeds 90 with an average of 60. So, im not going for speed or power. I believe the LS engines look a lot better in the car than the stock 944 engine too

[Techno Duck]

The 2.5L can be a pain but getting everything working on an LS swap is a pain also. I wont say the LS swap isn't worth it, but just want you to have a realistic expectation on how much work it is. Getting the engine installed and running is the easy part. Getting the power brakes, hydraulic clutch, power steering and cooling working right is the hard part.

The LM7 is an iron block 5.3L, personally i would look for an aluminum block (L33). Unfortunately all aluminum block variants of the LS are getting $$.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-technical-forum/674280-n-aing-my-turbo-ls1-conversion-project.html

I know all the pictures are dead (Photobucket sucks!), but this documents parts of the build.

This forum is your best resource;

944hybrids Forum: V8 Conversions

Ill just say i miss this car...

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by Techno Duck

The 2.5L can be a pain but getting everything working on an LS swap is a pain also. I wont say the LS swap isn't worth it, but just want you to have a realistic expectation on how much work it is.

The LM7 is an iron block 5.3L, personally i would look for an aluminum block (L33). Unfortunately all aluminum block variants of the LS are getting $$.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-technical-forum/674280-n-aing-my-turbo-ls1-conversion-project.html

I know all the pictures are dead (Photobucket sucks!), but this documents parts of the build.

This forum is your best resource;

944hybrids Forum: V8 Conversions

Hi Jon - thanks for chiming in. I hope you are doing well.

[Pipemaster]

Power brakes, power steering, and AC arent part of this swap for me. I learned and owned cars without any of those creature comforts and im perfectly capable of driving a car that still doesnt have them. In my mind that just adds a lot of extra $$ to the build thats unecessary. Although iv heard that driving a V8 swap 944 without power brakes is absolutely terrifying. Cant be worse than an MG with manual brakes thats only running the front two. This will be a very barebones swap. It needs to run and drive and stay running. Doesnt have to be pretty. Shifting doesnt always have to be great. Just needs to get me from point A to point B as its a daily driver and probably will be for many years to come

[Arthropraxis]

I DD my LS1 swapped car for the last 7 years now. I think the cost to get it on the road was about $5K. It runs/drives great and everyone that has driven it can't tell that is not the way it came. I have a sport manual rack and dual master cylinder manual brakes, it stops fine.
If you want to do it, you should. May ruin the value long term, but that is not why I bought the car.

Edit for clarity. Stops fine means ability to modulate the brakes to avoid lockup at threshold braking or lock them up. The bias adjusted toward the rear so they lock up first. I use 17 in 225F 255R street tires.

[Pipemaster]

Originally Posted by Arthropraxis

I DD my LS1 swapped car for the last 7 years now. I think the cost to get it on the road was about $5K. It runs/drives great and everyone that has driven it can't tell that is not the way it came. I have a sport manual rack and dual master cylinder manual brakes, it stops fine.
If you want to do it, you should. May ruin the value long term, but that is not why I bought the car.

Yeah thats not why i bought the car either. Hearing it from someone who daily drives it without power brakes makes it a little better sounding

[Arthropraxis]

Hydroboost is an option and you can use the original Porsche master cylinder to maintain the proper bias valve so the brakes should be exactly like the factory power brakes.

[v2rocket_aka944]

I Have driven a 951 with booster deleted but stock mc...HARD pedal but no actual braking power until you shove with all your might.

Hydro boost is much much better

[flash968]

this is one of those very subjective areas. hearing somebody say "it stops fine" is like saying a 55 chevy pickup stops fine. the 944, in any stock version, does not stop well enough for a 400hp V8, period. going without the booster is just nuts.

a V8 in a 944 brings up the issues of completely wrong gearing, weak differential, inadequate brakes, inadequate suspension, flexible chassis, the list gets nutty

it may be ok for some guys, but the ones i've driven were pure crap, and one of them was professionally installed by arguably the best company in the country for this. yes, the right pedal is fun to play with. that gets really old really fast though, when you start to find all of the weak points in the concept. that's where you get to start spending money. it's exactly the same as any other modification that dramatically increases power. you have to set up the rest of the car to handle that power (never mind the improvements needed on the driver).

i would never do this without a complete redesign of the setup of the car. it would be great to see it work out, but i question the logic of the $50k it would take to do it right. that being said, i dumped $150k into my 968, setting it up to handle the increase in power just going from 240hp to 345hp. nobody would say that was logical either.

it never ceases to amaze me at what people will put up with though.