Considering an '86 951... thoughts?

[OmniGLH]

So I've been a Porsche fan my whole life... and started seriously considering buying my first one about a year ago. Finally got the career where it needs to be, have some extra cash kicking around, etc. Was in the market for an air-cooled car. Shopped around a bit, did a TON of reading, and *almost* pulled the trigger a few times. Looked at a few 911SCs, a 964 Targa, a 993 cab, and a new Boxster S (yes I know it's water cooled.) Loved them all tho my favorite was probably a toss up between the 993 and 987S. I liked the fact that they were just a little more comfortable and user friendly... not as crude and rough as the older 911 was.

I've always had a soft spot for the 944 though. I like the punched out fenders, the improved practicality over the 911 or Boxster, and they're a little more rare to see on the road (IMO). They're not flashy like the 911, either (personally I don't like flash or attention much.) I've driven a few base 944s and always liked their direct, balanced feel.

Came across an '86 944 Turbo on Craigslist today. Local, and turns out he works for the same company I do - I have weekly meetings in a conference room a few doors down from his cube. He's a big 944 nut, this is the 5th he's owned, and he also has a 968 that he plans on keeping. 86k miles, he's the 3rd owner. Has all receipts for the car *since new* and has owned it since 2002. Looks like it's in good shape from the pics. Few rock chips and the driver's seat bolster shows some wear but otherwise looks to be in really good shape. Recently installed Koni adjustables, Mintex brake pads, a few odds and ends (TPS, oil pressure sensor.) Otherwise stock. Clear title (in-hand).

Due for a timing belt (was last changed at 60k), front main seal just started leaking a little, and needs front ball joints.

I've got another email in to him asking about any water leaks (I guess it's common for the hatch and sunroof to leak), if/when the water pump was replaced, and what kind of shape the clutch is in.

He's asking $6k, but has already told me he's open to negotiation regarding the stuff the car needs to help facilitate a sale to a "good home." I already spoke to an independent Porsche service shop out here (that came recommended by the local PCA chapter) and they quoted me right around $1200 including parts and labor to fix the 3 issues listed above. The owner is moving out of state to go back to school in the next few weeks and is in a hurry to sell it.

I plan to check the car out Friday night after work, and if it looks good, have the owner take it in to the aforementioned shop for a PPI. If they don't find anything major, and assuming the car is in reasonably decent shape cosmetically, I might come up with an offer.

It's just going to be a weekend toy kinda thing (well, next to the bike) so I won't be completely dependent on it. I don't mind if it's going to need some odds and ends here and there - I'm mechanically inclined and don't mind working on stuff (plus my 3 y/o is fascinated with anything I do in the garage, so if I have to do some stuff, then it just means I get to spend quality time with him too!) But I also don't want to buy a car that's gonna be down more than up... I definitely prefer driving to fixing. I've read the 944 FAQ, a few buyers guides throughout the web, and have been poking through the forums here and at Rennlist. I haven't seen too much that suggests these cars are especially maintenance intensive or problematic (tho I've talked to a few people who "know someone who knew someone who knew someone who had nothing but problems with their 944...")

So whaddya think? How bad are these things? Is there anything else I should look for/ask about/beware of?

Thanks!!!

-Jim

[BlueQuestTSi]

Waterpump, seals and rollers should be changed at the same time as the belts. You can get a rebuild kit for the front balljoints maybe even here(Pelican) but definitely through rennbay.

I just bought the '86 in my sig. A little higher mileage than yours, it was at 102k, it only needs new rear shocks. Belts, rollers and waterpump all replaced within 2k miles. Had new balljoints recently installed, Koni adjustables up front, but could still use rear shocks. It came with a huge stack of receipts, that even included a new clutch ~6k miles ago. It came with 15k worth of receipts in the last 6 years alone(maintenance, and extras like clutch, shift lever, etc.)

Issues are cracked dash, not horrible. And a split driver side lower seat bottom.

I paid $6900, and am now the 3rd owner. Try to keep that price in mind, especially after getting a PPI.

[bscpanther]

I haven't been a member here for long, but in the short time I have, many people come to ask this question, good question. All the people here definatly know this car but we're all biased IMHO. I know I am. My thus far unpublicized answer to this question goes like this, if you've somehow "had a connection".."fallen in love" or whatever you want to call it with the 944 then by all means you not only should but are almost obligated to get one. But in my opionion this means you don't have plans of getting rid of her. You'll have many GOOD times, and some bad. Now, on the other hand if you're looking for a good thrill that maybe you'll be over sometime in the future...go with a new car that you can trade in after a few years and get you're money back out of cause it's not worth it. Ironically enough my 951 is on the side lines as we speak and I still wouldn't trade her for anything. Good Luck.

[blown 944]

I truly love them and I have owned all types makes and models of cars, short of the supercars

If you stay on top of the maintanence they are very reliable IMO.

They are very easy to learn even the computer (DME) and it's relative parts seem to b open source at this point so fixing them is not hard at all, no matter what the job

IMHO this has been the easiest car to work on that I have owned, barring my race prepped vehicles

[Sonny]

I've owned an early 911 RS clone and I am now on my second 1986 944 turbo. My first 944T was wrecked. You just can't find another car with that styling and performance for such low cost. Throw a few mods in there and you have a car just as fast as a whole bunch of 30K$ cars out there. STI's, evos, SC's, ect.

[aj951]

The $1200 quote for the timing belt, front main seal, and front ball joints sounds low but if you have it writing then you are covered. I have an 89 turbo and I enjoy it very much but I have to agree with bscpanther comments about keeping the car. These cars are all about passion and you will most likely put way more money into the car than you will ever get out, but, most hobbies are that way. If you know that going in and you can do some of the work yourself, the experience will be much more pleasant. Good luck with the search.

[OmniGLH]

Well I passed on it. Took several attempts to even get time to see it with the guy (he kept cancelling.) It was in really rough shape. Exterior was BEAT. Front bumper was full of spiderwebs (cracked plastic), scratches everywhere, interior was pretty torn up. Lots of squeaks and rattles. Power steering barely worked too and made a ton of noise. Power wasn't very smooth - it would hesitate a little bit under WOT. Very subtle so tough to tell, could just be the clutch slipping once the power came on. Owner told me that it's normal for 944 clutches to engage really high in the travel. Maybe? (I can't recall past ones I've driven feeling like that) but this one literally didn't grab until I just about took my foot completely off the pedal.

21 years old or not - it's not what I was expecting for a car that only had 86k on the clock and was garage kept as claimed. It *did* have the full service history (I poked through the receipts he had... nice extensive list of stuff.) But the bulk of regular service receipts stopped at the 60k service - in 1999. So the last 8 years must've been pretty rough on the car.

Knowing it was rough, I was really thinking "no" (or just low-balling to see if he'd bite.) I stopped a block before returning the car to him to poke around a little and started reading through the receipts. It had a TON of stuff done in the past... everything I'd read about online that is common had been replaced. (cluch cylinder, water pump, exhaust header, etc.) so it seemed like, at least mechanically, the car was maintained, and just probably needed a clutch to at least drive/perform. After that all it'd need is a bit of cleaning in the interior, a freshening up of the suspension, some odds and ends (PS pump for starters) and eventually a respray. I figured it'd make a fun project, something to tinker with in the garage, and figured it'd be worth covering a PPI to see what else it needed (may not LOOK nice but if it's mechanically sound I can deal with it for a bit until I have the chance to clean it up.) But when I talked to him about it, he really didn't want to do it. Said he had 6 other folks coming out to look at it that day and really just wanted to sell it and not mess with having to take it in anywhere next week for a PPI. He asked me to make an offer on the car without a PPI... so I told him $4k. He said "no I want a lot more than that." Good thing because now that I really think about it, that car would've been a lot of work.

He said he'd call me at the end of the day if it didn't sell to one of the 6 other parties. I never heard from him. Guess it sold. Best of luck to the new owner... ultimately it really wasn't a project I was willing to tackle.

I think I'll continue searching and look for something a little cleaner. I originally wasn't looking for a 944 but after looking at the car yesterday (and all the reading I've done here) I think it's what I'm gonna try to dig up. I did find another local one that looks to be in a LOT better shape for a few bucks more than what this guy was asking. I know I'd feel a lot better spending a little more up front. I've got an email into him to see what the deal is. Stay tuned...

[nize]

it sounds like you've made a good decision. rush to buy/sell isn't always the best way. as for the clutch engaging 'high' that's not true. every 951 i've owned had the clutch engaging just before the halfway mark so it's obvious this one was in need of a clutch replacement ($$$).

i'm curious who ended up buying it.

you're correct though, spending more up front saves you from spending a lot more later on. just make sure it comes with all recent documentation.

[OmniGLH]

Alright he just left me a VM... looks like it didn't sell after all.

My mind is already made up (not interested) but I find it interesting that 6 other people also looked at it and passed. I think that just reinforces my decision, honestly

Here's the ad if anyone else might be interested:
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/car/392101906.html

Good luck.

[nize]

in my opinion, the stereo upgrade isn't really worth anything as far as affecting the value of the car.

does he have paperwork/receipts for the koni adjustables? are they front and rear, or front only? that would qualify for the lifetime warranty and affect the value of the car.

the kumho ecsta mx tires are nice, but not a 'favorite' as he claims. they are cheap, decent tires. the favorites are the goodyear eagle f1 gs-d3's which beat the kumho's in every category, or the michelin pilot sports, which are double the cost of the kumho's.

what does he mean by 'sport alignment'? who did the alignment? does he have paperwork? is it warrantied?

how many miles did the car have when he purchased in 2002? since you've already mentioned he has no paperwork for the past 5 years, i'm curious how many miles he put on the car.

i also noticed you're local. if you want, we can get together to see this car and i can point out all the pros and cons for you and the owner. we can show up in my car to easily show the differences as well, if you wanted to use it as a negotiation chip.

and a ppi takes about an hour or two at gerber motorsports in seattle. there's really no excuse to not get a ppi done on a car unless the seller is trying to hide something.

[nize]

also, which mintex brake pads were installed? paperwork? metallic pads wear the rotors out faster.

[OmniGLH]

Originally Posted by nize

in my opinion, the stereo upgrade isn't really worth anything as far as affecting the value of the car.

does he have paperwork/receipts for the koni adjustables? are they front and rear, or front only? that would qualify for the lifetime warranty and affect the value of the car.

the kumho ecsta mx tires are nice, but not a 'favorite' as he claims. they are cheap, decent tires. the favorites are the goodyear eagle f1 gs-d3's which beat the kumho's in every category, or the michelin pilot sports, which are double the cost of the kumho's.

what does he mean by 'sport alignment'? who did the alignment? does he have paperwork? is it warrantied?

how many miles did the car have when he purchased in 2002? since you've already mentioned he has no paperwork for the past 5 years, i'm curious how many miles he put on the car.

i also noticed you're local. if you want, we can get together to see this car and i can point out all the pros and cons for you and the owner. we can show up in my car to easily show the differences as well, if you wanted to use it as a negotiation chip.

and a ppi takes about an hour or two at gerber motorsports in seattle. there's really no excuse to not get a ppi done on a car unless the seller is trying to hide something.

You're right about the stereo - it had no effect on my interest in the car. I'm a bit of an audiophile and I'd probably wind up putting my own system in it (if I decided to put a stereo in it at all.) The stuff he's got in there now is definitely "hacked" in.

He's got Konis at all 4 corners, but still has the stock springs. Didn't specifically ask if he had receipts for them or not - but I would assume so, based on his claim of having all receipts since new.

He had a fairly stuffed folder that was full of receipts. A majority of the receipts were dated 1999 or earlier (with some going all the way back to 1987.) I didn't see any in there that were more recent than 99... tho I didn't go through EVERY receipt to inspect for dates. The receipts where I actually looked at the dates were the ones that had line items of interest (60k service, water pump, etc.) The 60k was done in 99.

He thinks he's put about 20k on it. He said he originally wanted to "set it up" but shortly after starting into it, he found an E36 M3 and decided to play with that instead (apparently he took a year off of work last year to chase a national SCCA auto-x championship.) So the 944 spent most of its time in the garage.

No idea whether the tires are good or not - I've been WAY more into the motorcycle scene for the last 7 years (quit racing last year so now I have cash to burn ) I've got a set of RE070's on my GTI and love 'em. If I did a wheel upgrade, I'd probably roll with a set of these (or similar.)

Didn't ask about the alignment either. Based on his auto-x experience, my guess is that he did it himself. Regardless, once the ball joints were redone it'd need to be realigned anyways - so it having a "sport alignment" right now was worthless to me.

It had a LOT of squeaks and rattles. A few interior trim pieces (mostly in the hatch area) were missing. Again, it's probably stuff that I can tighten up (missing spring clips, maybe some new/ebay panels, etc) but it overall just didn't leave me feeling very good or "wow I want this car!" My excitement was definitely deflated after driving it. I really get the feeling that it's had a pretty tough life the last few years... and really, based on the cosmetic condition of the car, really makes me wonder about the true mechanical condition (receipts or not!!) I've never known someone who is anal enough to keep every receipt for the car to not at least keep it washed/waxed every now and then (he said he's never waxed it but promised "it'll shine up"...)

And yep, I'm local... just noticed your location in your post as well Technically, I'm not Seattle... I'm in Sammamish. Just figured that this being a national board, more people would know Seattle rather than an eastside suburb

I'm really not interested in this one anymore, and having sold plenty of stuff in the past (cars, race bikes, etc.) - I don't really want to waste his time. There's one other car I want to look at, so I may take you up on your offer to go look at it with me if you're interested and willing (dinner/beer/soda on me.) If you wanted to look at this particular car we've been talking about yourself, knock yourself out. If you think that underneath all of this, in your more experienced opinion that it's really a steal of a buy... let me know and I'll reconsider. But for now, my gut really says "no."

As for the PPI - I was going to use ******** Vick in Bellevue. They wanted $149 to do the PPI.

[BlueQuestTSi]

O. T.

I saw a yellow Ducati Monster in one of those pics


Oh... And I still think he might be asking a bit much. 6 other buyers also thought the same thing.

[nize]

btw jim, i have a compression tester so we could do a compression test on the spot if you're really interested in the car.