997.2 or 991?? help

[Gideon911]

Hey guys, I'd like to hear some opinions from you guys. I know people will say drive them both..It's really not that simple. I've driven a 997 at a dealer, but it's not like I can rip through canyon roads on a test drive. I don't have any close buddies with these models (where I could possibly test through canyons). I found a 991.1 s in manual not too far from my house and the price is reasonable (50k with 66k miles). I think they've depreciated plenty. It's difficult to find a 991.1s in manual. I'm sure pdk is great but I don't ever sit in traffic. I get to drive awesome canyon roads all the time. I have an 88 911 with a lot of weight out of it (2500 LBS), upgraded pistons and cams, all new suspension which is stiffer than stock, steve wong chip, etc. That car is a lot of fun. I've also got a 72E with a 3 liter in it, that car is a blast also (light weight and very nimble). 7 years ago I owned a 2008 Cayman S, which I loved..but it just wasn't a 911. I like the 997.2 and the 991.1 a lot. Seems like the 997 has slightly better steering feel, from what I've read..but the 991.1 should be awesome as well. It would be really fun to have a 911 with some creature comforts, and just to try a water cooled 911 for the first time. If you guys have any input or suggestions let me know. I do a lot of canyon driving, and drive my cars for random things pretty often. I love the air cooled visceral experience. I enjoy driving a slow car fast. In the past I've leaned more towards the air cooled cars because of that. I know I can't drive a newer 911 close to full out on canyon roads..

[racer]

From an overall performance perspective, the newer car is the better one. But you are chasing a "feel" and that can only be done with a test drive. My dad's Cayman S is a hoot to me. PDK, 300+hp. But its not as engaging to me to drive as an older car (914/aircooled 911 or even a 944 series car).

My guess is once the rush of the "new" car fades, like your Cayman, neither the 997 or 991 will be around long.

[dion914-6]

A buddy of mine picked up a 991 last year after first looking at the 997.2’s. He really wanted a 997, but didn’t fit well in it so went with the larger 991. His decision was made after test driving back to back cars.

[Mehoff]

The 991 is better in every way than the the 997 (using conventional auto review metrics). Things to keep in mind:

* The 991 is faster (quite a bit faster), but loses the “sports car feel” almost entirely
* The 991 steering is anemic at best, putrid at worst. There is little to no street feel
* You can’t “toss around” a 991 like the older cars (including 997). Porsche built in a good amount of understeer into the car. I assume it can be tuned out, but talking as delivered here
* The 991 is heavier and it is very obvious
* The creature comforts in the 991 are light years better than the 997. It is like a comfortable grocery getter in the interior, with the modern accoutrements that were noticeably missing from all 911 variants before
*WORST YET: The clutch and shifting on the 991 feel like you’re driving a Honda Civic

That said, I absolutely loved the 991 as a daily commuter. After purchase I ended up keeping the 997 because I was attached to the car, but never once commuted in it again. Basically, heading into the office or in traffic, I drove the 991. Heading out for a “fun, spirited drive” I took the 997. Every time; creature of habit I guess.

I think it boils down to for what purpose you want the car. Heading down PCH or out on a dinner date, I recommend the 991. Want to tear up the canyons and FEEL the car and the driving experience, no brainer for the 997.

[spyerx]

the interior on the 991 are nicer. the ride is good. they are comfy.
everything else about the 997.2 is better (i've had them all, never owned a 996 tho)
i have a 991 c2s x51 car right now as a daily, it's a good car, but it's my daily and 'wife outing' car. i have 3 others that get canyon and drive duty

If you plan to use it with your others on canyon rotation, the 997 is much more fun there. my 991 i have to be at well over illegal speeds to feel it. Even my 997RS i can 'feel' at much lower speeds.

[450knotOffice]

Originally Posted by Mehoff

The 991 is better in every way than the the 997 (using conventional auto review metrics). Things to keep in mind:

* The 991 is faster (quite a bit faster), but loses the “sports car feel” almost entirely
* The 991 steering is anemic at best, putrid at worst. There is little to no street feel
* You can’t “toss around” a 991 like the older cars (including 997). Porsche built in a good amount of understeer into the car. I assume it can be tuned out, but talking as delivered here
* The 991 is heavier and it is very obvious
* The creature comforts in the 991 are light years better than the 997. It is like a comfortable grocery getter in the interior, with the modern accoutrements that were noticeably missing from all 911 variants before
*WORST YET: The clutch and shifting on the 991 feel like you’re driving a Honda Civic

That said, I absolutely loved the 991 as a daily commuter. After purchase I ended up keeping the 997 because I was attached to the car, but never once commuted in it again. Basically, heading into the office or in traffic, I drove the 991. Heading out for a “fun, spirited drive” I took the 997. Every time; creature of habit I guess.

I think it boils down to for what purpose you want the car. Heading down PCH or out on a dinner date, I recommend the 991. Want to tear up the canyons and FEEL the car and the driving experience, no brainer for the 997.

There are statements here that are really just purely individual opinion. I happen to own an air cooled 911, early 996.1, a 997.2 S, and a 991.1 GTS, and my wife owned a Cayman for 13 years before taking over the 997.2S. I've driven and occasionally tracked most of these cars since I bought my air cooled car more than sixteen years ago. I only mention all that for perspective. I will offer up my own experience and some personal insight on the matter.

First of all, weight. Contrary to what was written above, the published weights of the 997.2 S and my 991.1 GTS are identical - 1,425 kg, or 3,135 lbs.; in fact, between the 997.2S and 991.1S, the 991 published as being 30kg or 66 lbs lighter than the 997. So the 991 certainly is NOT heavier than the 997, at least between two similar variants. With that said, the 991 is definitely BIGGER physically than the 997 (but not heavier).

The best steering is definitely that of the air cooled car, without surprise. Hard to beat the feel of an unassisted steering rack with so little weight on the nose. The 996 rack is nice and light and very communicative, as is the 997's, but to say the 991's rack is anemic and putrid is a horrible mischaracterization of what is unquestionably the best electrically assisted steering in the industry. It's solid, very communicative (if not quite as much so as the previous cars) and quick. I can feel and know exactly what the front end of the car is doing.

The car with the most tendency to understeer in stock form (all of my cars are stock except the air cooled 911) is the 996 - by a long shot. It'll oversteer too, if really provoked, but its default is a big front end washout if pushed hard. The 997 shows much less tendency to understeer or even oversteer. It's very neutral (for a rear engined car), but make no mistake, it still FEELS like a 911 in the sense that you really notice the weight in back during quick direction changes. Now, contrary to what was mentioned above, MY bone stock 991 GTS shows the least tendency of the bunch understeer. It has a very noticeably planted and stable front end that reacts more quickly and more like my wife's old Cayman. In fact, the whole car is locked down and feels more like a mid engine car than a rear engine car. As I mentioned, It really reminds me of my wife's old Cayman in that the front is more willing to hold a line and allow mid corner corrections without the back end feeling like it may want to get loose.

That GTS is most DEFINITELY, unequivocally a sports car in every way. The issue I see though is that as these cars become more and more capable and become so easy to drive at such high velocities, they become almost TOO easy at sane road speeds. If I want more of a edge of the envelope thrill at more sane speeds, the old air cooled car is definitely the better choice, but if I am willing to head out to an open canyon road really early in the morning before any traffic exists, and push it a bit more, set the dampers to Sport Plus, my 991GTS can and will also be a huge thrill with extremely high limits, a beautiful, solid PORSCHE sports car feel, with a wonderful exhaust note (Sport exhaust button on).

Anyway, I just wanted to toss out another take on the 997 vs 991 question.

[991gts6s]

Once you drive the 991 its kinda over for the last models..

Make sure it has options,,, the hydraulic sway bars PCCD.. S Engine sport plus mode,
the burmester stereo.. Headlight system. etc etc..
All that stuff makes it an awesome car.. believe me it matters

[Nutbutt]

One more opinion ! I have had both the 997.2 S and 991 s. I still have the 997.2 s. The reason ? Performance of the 997.2. On the tracks and on the street it is a true sports car. The comfort features are better in the 991 but again if you are looking for tearing up a back road or a little track time the 997.2 for me out performs.
The only thing better for me was stepping up to a turbo but then we are talking two different cars and price points.

[nixtfy]

I have a 88 targa 3.3l and just purchased a 2012.5 991 manual. I could not be happier with the 991.1. The car feels like a nimble mid engined car. The interior is top notch. I have started going on club drives and it’s a nice change.

Driving the targa 200-300 miles would wear me out.

I plan to keep both cars

[Gideon911]

I know this is a really late reply..I do not go on pelican often enough. Thanks for the response. I'm still in the same boat. I think you could be right about either of these cars being around long. I've gotten to the point where I feel it would be fun to have a cheapish 997 to somewhat daily and enjoy some AC in the summer. I'd imagine after a while, I'll go back to the most raw experience.

Originally Posted by racer

From an overall performance perspective, the newer car is the better one. But you are chasing a "feel" and that can only be done with a test drive. My dad's Cayman S is a hoot to me. PDK, 300+hp. But its not as engaging to me to drive as an older car (914/aircooled 911 or even a 944 series car).

My guess is once the rush of the "new" car fades, like your Cayman, neither the 997 or 991 will be around long.

[Gideon911]

hahah awesome response. You're local, if you ever head up highway 2 on friday mornings, I typically drive an 88 3.2 with run style bumpers. Thanks for the reply

Originally Posted by Mehoff

The 991 is better in every way than the the 997 (using conventional auto review metrics). Things to keep in mind:

* The 991 is faster (quite a bit faster), but loses the “sports car feel” almost entirely
* The 991 steering is anemic at best, putrid at worst. There is little to no street feel
* You can’t “toss around” a 991 like the older cars (including 997). Porsche built in a good amount of understeer into the car. I assume it can be tuned out, but talking as delivered here
* The 991 is heavier and it is very obvious
* The creature comforts in the 991 are light years better than the 997. It is like a comfortable grocery getter in the interior, with the modern accoutrements that were noticeably missing from all 911 variants before
*WORST YET: The clutch and shifting on the 991 feel like you’re driving a Honda Civic

That said, I absolutely loved the 991 as a daily commuter. After purchase I ended up keeping the 997 because I was attached to the car, but never once commuted in it again. Basically, heading into the office or in traffic, I drove the 991. Heading out for a “fun, spirited drive” I took the 997. Every time; creature of habit I guess.

I think it boils down to for what purpose you want the car. Heading down PCH or out on a dinner date, I recommend the 991. Want to tear up the canyons and FEEL the car and the driving experience, no brainer for the 997.

[Gideon911]

Thanks for the response! I appreciate different opinions. Yours is great, since you own several cars. I am a bit shocked to hear the 996 is the car most eager to understeer. I wouldn't have guessed that. Since my original post, I've driven another 991.1 base, and I've driven another 997.1 base. The 991 felt like an amazing car, extremely well made, tons of power, and i'd say overall very impressive. The steering reminded me of my wife's 2013 Cayenne Diesel (that's not a bad thing). The 997 has a better feel to me. Both are great cars no doubt. I've read a bit more about the 991 manual and mostly negative commentary. Seems Porsche really spent all their energy on the PDK and that manual trans was an afterthought. I can't say from personal experience. I've only driven the 991 pdk. I found what seems to be a decent deal on a 997.2s manual coupe, but it's in FL, and the car is black..The car does seem to be pretty incredible.

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

There are statements here that are really just purely individual opinion. I happen to own an air cooled 911, early 996.1, a 997.2 S, and a 991.1 GTS, and my wife owned a Cayman for 13 years before taking over the 997.2S. I've driven and occasionally tracked most of these cars since I bought my air cooled car more than sixteen years ago. I only mention all that for perspective. I will offer up my own experience and some personal insight on the matter.

First of all, weight. Contrary to what was written above, the published weights of the 997.2 S and my 991.1 GTS are identical - 1,425 kg, or 3,135 lbs.; in fact, between the 997.2S and 991.1S, the 991 published as being 30kg or 66 lbs lighter than the 997. So the 991 certainly is NOT heavier than the 997, at least between two similar variants. With that said, the 991 is definitely BIGGER physically than the 997 (but not heavier).

The best steering is definitely that of the air cooled car, without surprise. Hard to beat the feel of an unassisted steering rack with so little weight on the nose. The 996 rack is nice and light and very communicative, as is the 997's, but to say the 991's rack is anemic and putrid is a horrible mischaracterization of what is unquestionably the best electrically assisted steering in the industry. It's solid, very communicative (if not quite as much so as the previous cars) and quick. I can feel and know exactly what the front end of the car is doing.

The car with the most tendency to understeer in stock form (all of my cars are stock except the air cooled 911) is the 996 - by a long shot. It'll oversteer too, if really provoked, but its default is a big front end washout if pushed hard. The 997 shows much less tendency to understeer or even oversteer. It's very neutral (for a rear engined car), but make no mistake, it still FEELS like a 911 in the sense that you really notice the weight in back during quick direction changes. Now, contrary to what was mentioned above, MY bone stock 991 GTS shows the least tendency of the bunch understeer. It has a very noticeably planted and stable front end that reacts more quickly and more like my wife's old Cayman. In fact, the whole car is locked down and feels more like a mid engine car than a rear engine car. As I mentioned, It really reminds me of my wife's old Cayman in that the front is more willing to hold a line and allow mid corner corrections without the back end feeling like it may want to get loose.

That GTS is most DEFINITELY, unequivocally a sports car in every way. The issue I see though is that as these cars become more and more capable and become so easy to drive at such high velocities, they become almost TOO easy at sane road speeds. If I want more of a edge of the envelope thrill at more sane speeds, the old air cooled car is definitely the better choice, but if I am willing to head out to an open canyon road really early in the morning before any traffic exists, and push it a bit more, set the dampers to Sport Plus, my 991GTS can and will also be a huge thrill with extremely high limits, a beautiful, solid PORSCHE sports car feel, with a wonderful exhaust note (Sport exhaust button on).

Anyway, I just wanted to toss out another take on the 997 vs 991 question.

[brackenwhite]

I had an ’85 targa and drove it everywhere until I replaced it with a new 991.1 C4 with manual transmission. The 991 has a split personality, at least in my experience. Most of the time it reminds me of my old E39 5-series (great car). However, when pushed in the hills in sport mode it’s a hoot. On the freeway it’s a great long-distance cruiser.

[R_32]

The further back you go I would say you have more feel - whether suspensions, transmissions, weight, sound, throttle, steering, etc. but the opposite is effectively true as you move more recent performance and comfort is virtually always improving.

I’m not going to pretend to have driven every iteration/model out there, but in terms of the ones I have, this seems to be true. But have driven several of the models you are asking about specifically, and it is definitely true. So maybe if you are looking for feel, figure out the minimum comfort items you want and go from there?

Not a bad dilemma to be dealing with for sure!

[PINGMAN]

I had a really nice specd 991.1 Carrera S. Was an absolute beautiful car and a blast to drive but at the end of the day, the car felt to large. I must disclose I am a very analog type person, hence why I own a 83 SC and an E30 M3. I drove a friends 997.2 and fell in love how the car felt over all, reminded me of a very modern air cooled car.

I sold my 991 and got into a 2012 GTS and have never looked back. Again, loved my 991 but it just seemed a little too bloated and not as much feedback as I would like.

Hope this helps!

[nixtfy]

I think r_32 has a good approach. My circumstances are different I plan to keep 2 Porsches car. I would never have purchased the 991 had a friend not given me a screaming deal. I purchased it for the same price of a 997 or a really nice 996 c4s. I am inclined to think a late model 997 might be perfect for you. Enjoy the hunt.

Originally Posted by R_32

The further back you go I would say you have more feel - whether suspensions, transmissions, weight, sound, throttle, steering, etc. but the opposite is effectively true as you move more recent performance and comfort is virtually always improving.

I’m not going to pretend to have driven every iteration/model out there, but in terms of the ones I have, this seems to be true. But have driven several of the models you are asking about specifically, and it is definitely true. So maybe if you are looking for feel, figure out the minimum comfort items you want and go from there?

Not a bad dilemma to be dealing with for sure!

[R_32]

And in the interest of disclosure, I have a 997.1 so I am a bit biased!

[Gideon911]

I agree I think r_32 has a great outlook. PINGMAN, great insight as well. All helpful responses, I love this forum. For myself, and I believe for most of us, I consider the $ amount for the car, and how much fun I think that car will be for that price. For example, I thought a 996 c4s was an incredible car when those were valued under 30k. If that was still the case, I'd probably own one now. Since they are more like 40-50k, I feel a 997.1 c2s is probably more for me if I am going to spend in that price range. Every time I look at cars that creep up in the 70k range, I reason that I might as well purchase a 991.1 GT3 for around 100k, or even a 997.1 gt3 at that price range. If I spend that kind of money, I'd want to sell one of my air-cooled cars (which I don't want to do) as I'd feel like I've just got an irresponsible amount of money in cars lol..I'm sure this will illicit a few funny responses here lol. Any GT car would be a blast, and I'd love to have one, but I'm not the guy who will spend $2500 a weekend on track tires. I'd love to do more track days in the future, but I'm not sure how many days a year I'll realistically go. A gt car in local canyon roads might not feel that great to me since I wouldn't even come close to being able to ring it out. Also, I'm not the sort of person that wants to attract a lot of attention, which a GT3 does to some degree..One thing I love about a 911 is its not super flashy, and 40-50k for a newish 911 with heat/air is really the goal. I know this reply was all over the place, sorry gents..

Originally Posted by nixtfy

I think r_32 has a good approach. My circumstances are different I plan to keep 2 Porsches car. I would never have purchased the 991 had a friend not given me a screaming deal. I purchased it for the same price of a 997 or a really nice 996 c4s. I am inclined to think a late model 997 might be perfect for you. Enjoy the hunt.

[lindy 911]

I had a hot-rodded '78 SC that had been gutted to 2300 pounds. 3.0 twin plug, GE 100 cams and 10.5:1 pistons and 46 Webers. Made about 240hp at the wheels. Trick suspension and brakes. Fun car and fast. I now have a 991.1 with 7 speed manual box Carrera S. No matter where, how or when, the 991 would eat the 911 alive. Much easier to drive fast and no rear-end step out. A truly amazing car.

[Gideon911]

No doubt the newer cars are easier to drive fast! I'm not sure there is a bad 911

Originally Posted by lindy 911

I had a hot-rodded '78 SC that had been gutted to 2300 pounds. 3.0 twin plug, GE 100 cams and 10.5:1 pistons and 46 Webers. Made about 240hp at the wheels. Trick suspension and brakes. Fun car and fast. I now have a 991.1 with 7 speed manual box Carrera S. No matter where, how or when, the 991 would eat the 911 alive. Much easier to drive fast and no rear-end step out. A truly amazing car.