Can I go faster, or am I at a limit?

[Vipergrün]

Hey ya'll, went to the big track at Willow yesterday. Damn hot, that's for sure. No matter what I did, I could break 1:45 laps. I ended with a 1:45.008 I had 5 laps back to back in the 1:45's, so at least I am consistant.

I think the hot track and the Kuhmo's getting hot were some of it, but is there a point where I can expect just not to get anything more out of the car? She felt extremely well hooked up and my testicular fortitude was pretty good as well.

Can you guys with SC's stay in 4th gear around the Omega? I had to drop into 3rd to stay in the torque range.

Next time I go out, do I just force the car til I lose it? I almost lost it at turn 8 at over 120, friggen wind and bumps!

I also found that if I went to 5th gear I'd actually go slower cuz it does not pull as hard.

Ideas and criticism welcome

-B

[Jack Olsen]

You were going as fast as you could go on that day. On a given day, I always seem to hit a plateau point. I think I'm fixing problems and pushing harder, but my lap times remain flat.

Your brain is going to continue to process your laps for weeks to come, somewhere in the background. The next time you're there, you'll almost certainly be faster.

Now, listen to me talk like I know what I'm saying:

Especially with Willow, the driving line is a huge factor in your laptimes, and it takes a lot of laps to get it right. (As an example, I believe I'm consistently blowing turns 1, 2, 5 and 9 after four years of work on getting them right.) It's easy to have the car break loose in corners at Willow when you're running way below the car's capabilities. Tires breaking loose have less to do with the car's limits than they do with the way you're navigating all the little parts of the turn.

Another way to approach it is to realize that you make dozens off little mistakes in even your best lap. How you correct for these mistakes is where steady improvement comes, as you get more comfortable undoing the effects of the errors. Almost going off in one point in a turn is scary -- but it's just one small part of that turn. As you get faster, you're going to be on the edge of losing it through most parts of the turn. But you'll be able to comfortably keep everything on the good side of trouble without the beginner's tendency to panic.

[ted]

Originally posted by bb80sc
Can you guys with SC's stay in 4th gear around the Omega? I had to drop into 3rd to stay in the torque range.

Big Willow is my favorite track. I hope to track there 6/8 more days this fall. My 69 911 with RS flares and a 3.2 does 1:31 on Victoracers. Our cars are similar but it sounds like your suspension is stock?
My 911 likes 3rd (and it's a close ratio 3rd) around the Omega as well. More throttle steer control.

Agree the heat is not going to give you your record lap time.
You should return and ride with an instructor like Jack to get some hands on opinions.

Places I found time or at least more control at BW.
T1 trail brake hard deep into the turn and then in 4th quickly on to full throttle before the apex. You know you got it right when at track out you use all the road, or when it scares you.

T2 do you brake? Just an engine breathe at turn in is all I need. I plan on working on reducing this pause next time at the track.
You are in that turn for a long time, so there is much to gain there.

T5 is the start of the straight full throttle to the end of T8.
Coming down the omega entering into T5 I hug the gators on the right side and time my braking so that at the end of the gators on the right I track in and release the brakes ASAP while slowly feeding gas negotiating the off camber center of T5. At the T5 apex I hope to be at full throttle. T5 is key to your speed through T6, 7 and 8.

Do you lift at T6 or T8? Hopefully not.

T9, what a fun turn. There is always more to gain there.

Big Willow with your car is a momentum track.

When we think there is nothing left to gain, that’s when we stop learning.

Try reading Skip Barber's book Going Faster and you'll have a mind full of new ideas to try next time.

I plan to join TCRA and the Alfa club at BW this fall. I'd gladly bench race with you more then.
Maybe jack and I can share the track again this year too??

[John Rogers]

At Willows I try to find someone who is faster and follow them very closly, although MOST of the time it scares the hell out of me! For example if I could follow Wayne Baker or Frank Beck I would probably have heart failure, so I do the best I can with the car I have. For example, a 2.5 liter Alpha or 510 will pass me in turn 8 and I am just about maxed out at 135 or so and they have to be doing 145 or better! I would NOT try going so hard that I loose it since that will slow you down a lot. Have fun.

[Jack Olsen]

2.5 liter Alpha - 145 mph? Really?

What kind of lap times do they run?

I only get about 130 through 8.

[Vipergrün]

thanks for the replies guys!

My suspension if fairly upgraded, 22/30 t-bars, Bilstein Sports, 22/21 Carrera sways, Kuhmo V700 tires.

Ted, for T1, I am typically downshifting from 5-> 4, and braking late. I dive in hard and drift way out, then come back in for T2. I hit T2 in 4th and am going 90 or so, I think I can get more there. I do brake slightly at entry. I stay in 3rd through the Omega, thru T5 and am shifting into 4th going up hill to 6, and have it floored to 9, where I downshift to 4th and brake.

Hopefully this will give some insight

Again, thanks for the replies!

[ted]

Originally posted by john rogers
I would NOT try going so hard that I loose it since that will slow you down a lot. Have fun.

I agree, what is spining going to teach you? All it will teach is that you should not spin again.

Afterall a good pilot know's they don't need to crash a plane to improve as a pilot.

A spin is a total loss of control. A second spin shows you have not corrected or adjusted for the cause of the 1st spin.

When you are at Big Willow you should have got those early spins out of your system at a slower venue, AX or maybe even SOW.

Following someone can help, but never say to yourself "if he did it so can I". He may have years more experiance.
If you were following me I would gradually build up speed while trying to keep our spacing consistant. Jack can run around a 1:30 at BW, if he ran some low 1:40s with you in tow you might find something helpful.

I think your lap sounds good. Maybe (like me) you are thinking of trying to keep more of your momentum in T2 and T9?

Are you reading any race driveing books? It sounds like you have had some previous track experiance?

[Jack Olsen]

Your limit for one day is not necessarily your limit for very long.

On my first visit to Willow, with my 3.6 in an early car, I ran a best of a 1:49. The next time I was there, I couldn't do better than a 1:53. Next visit I got down to 1:46's. Next visit 1:43's. Next visit 1:41's. And so on, and so on, down to 1:33's in that car before I crashed it into a wall.

In other words, I'm a slow learner.

[DByers]

Very nice Brad! Wish I could have gone with you. I cant give you any tips on how to be faster because you have me beat by a good 6 -7 seconds (bastard). Hopefully we can all be out there on the 22nd of Sept. with OTR. Of course I will be lonely all by myself in the yellow group as it seems that all you SC guys are moving up to blue. Maybe your next step is an in car camera so you can replay laps after an event and see more of what your doing right as we always seem to focus on what we do wrong.

Hope the family is doing well.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Originally posted by john rogers
....a 2.5 liter Alpha ...

Sorry to yank your chain over absolute trivia, but it's Alfa. Or ALFA, because it's an acronym. (So's FIAT, for that matter.)

ALFA == Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili

Company (more like LLC?) for making automobiles in Lombardy.

(FIAT == Fabrica Italiana d'Automobili di Torino ; Italian car-maker in Turin. ... Or, Fix It Again Tony... )

--DD

[nostatic]

Originally posted by DByers
Hopefully we can all be out there on the 22nd of Sept. with OTR. Of course I will be lonely all by myself in the yellow group as it seems that all you SC guys are moving up to blue.

not this yellow boy...

Wasn't it originally scheduled for the 27th?

[bigrubberjeep]

Yellow boy's ROCK!

It's gona be fun time, I cant wait to see you guys again at the track. Hopefully I'll get past some fears from my first track day.

All you guys made it much less stresfull then I thought it would be last time.

I'm hoping to get new "b's" shocks in before I go. darn stock boge's make my car feel like a cadillac after driving a few other 911's with B's

[DByers]

Wasn't it originally scheduled for the 27th?

Kailo had it wrong on the OTR site. They changed it to read Wednesday the 22nd.

So I do have some company in yellow.

[John Rogers]

Opps!

[Vipergrün]

Originally posted by DByers
Very nice Brad! Wish I could have gone with you. I cant give you any tips on how to be faster because you have me beat by a good 6 -7 seconds (bastard). Hopefully we can all be out there on the 22nd of Sept. with OTR. Of course I will be lonely all by myself in the yellow group as it seems that all you SC guys are moving up to blue. Maybe your next step is an in car camera so you can replay laps after an event and see more of what your doing right as we always seem to focus on what we do wrong.

Hope the family is doing well.

I only beat Stay Puff by 6-7 seconds? Boy, I DO suck Just kidding Danny.... How's the suspension upgrade going?

I did not get to the trak until 1:30PM and it was like 102F at that point. I was up barfing until 4:00AM the night before....bad Taco Bell!!!! The track was wide open and I ran in like 3 consecutive sessions. Not near as much fun as with all of the Pelican heads with OTR, though! I'll be there the 22nd. Should be fun... We gotta start planning the GAF poker game.

[ZCAT3]

Brad - my wife and I were at this event on both Saturday and Sunday morning. My car is a 71T with an SC motor and transmission. The tranny has some custom gearing and the engine is built for an 8,000 RPM red line so it may not be a direct match. This was the first time at Willow Springs for us in this car (and only the second time overall we have driven this car on the track). By Sunday, I was in the 1:45 range like you. I would stay in 4th in the straight, and at 7300 RPM or so I would be around 135 at the end of the straight. I experimented using 5th gear, but it was slowing me down a bit. With better exit speed out of 9 I may get to a point where 5th makes sense, but the 5th gear in our car is very tall. I would stay in 4th through 1 and 2 and downshift at the braking zone for 3. I always brake deep into 3 and turn a bit late as it helps to make it almost a straight line to the top of the hill. I would then shift back into 4th right before the hill at turn 6. I cannot imagine that I will ever be in 4th through the omega.

My wife follows this same basic approach and she was in the upper 130's on Sunday morning (yes - she is kicking my butt out there).

[ZCAT3]

By the way, here is our car - perhaps you saw us there -

[Vipergrün]

Bill, you must have left right before I got there! Sounds like we drive fairly similar. Your wife sounds like a different story Of course, I probably have 120lbs over her, which equates to a few more horsies just there! Your car looks nice, hope to see you at an event sometime. Thanks for the info.

-B

[DByers]

Brad the suspension is waiting on some parts. So I put it back together and drove the snot out of her on sunday just to see what it was like with the front sway bar installed (thanks Todd). Hopefully the next weekend our two we can get it done on Mikey's lift. Well see.
Im out for the GAF and the poker game