911SC in SCCA's new ITR class

[DaveE]

I currently have a BMW 2002 that I race is SCCA's ITB class. SCCA is starting a new Club Racing class next year called ITR and they are going to class the '78 to '83 SCs along with a host of other cars.

For those not familiar with SCCA Improved Touring classes the engines have to be basically stock but balancing/blueprinting is allowed, a .5 bump in CR is allowed and a 1mm overbore is allowed. The stock CIS would have to be used, stock cams, etc.

Suspension bushings are free, spring rates free, sway bars free. Bodywork same as stock. Stock brakes, pads free.

Min weight with driver is around 2650 lb (I forget the exact weight). There is more detail on cars classed on the Improved Touring forum. I suppose a PCA G Stock car would be pretty close in spec, about 100 pounds lighter.

Since the '78 to '83 look like they'll be on the same spec line, what kind of power could you get mixing components, such as early large port heads and intakes with later high CR pistons.

Am I insane for considering this?

[DaveE]

Never mind. I just saw the previous thread on this topic.

[924RACR]

to another ITB'er!

I question whether you'd have as much fun for as little money as you're currently having in ITB... if you're looking to improve to a Porsche for racing, but want to stay competitive, you can still build a 924 pretty cheap!

[DaveE]

Originally posted by 924RACR
to another ITB'er!

I question whether you'd have as much fun for as little money as you're currently having in ITB... if you're looking to improve to a Porsche for racing, but want to stay competitive, you can still build a 924 pretty cheap!

Back at ya, Vaughan.

No question that my racing budget would go up dramatically. Still it is tempting to me if I can find the right SC at the right price. I actually have quite a few bucks tied up in my '02. I haven't raced since the Fall of '03 but plan to get back to the track for the last MARRS race this year and run the whole season in '07.

[Geo31]

Originally posted by DaveE
Since the '78 to '83 look like they'll be on the same spec line, what kind of power could you get mixing components, such as early large port heads and intakes with later high CR pistons.

Not to be a killjoy, but you cannot cherry pick the best pieces. You have to swap a complete unit. In the case of an engine, it's a long block.

[DaveE]

Yes, you are correct, my bad. Interesting to know now that half of the '02s I race against in ITB are illegal for running an E12 head, which didn't come out 'til '72.

[924RACR]

Originally posted by DaveE
Yes, you are correct, my bad. Interesting to know now that half of the '02s I race against in ITB are illegal for running an E12 head, which didn't come out 'til '72.

Just makes it all that much sweeter to beat 'em, doesn't it! To say nothing of the Vulvos...

[RaceProEngineer]

Dave (and everyone),

We are naturally a bit prejudiced, but here is an ideal candidate to race PCA (for which it was built), AND SCCA. Just add some ballast and go!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=292329

Oh - and Dave, we are only one state away!

Ed LoPresti

[Geo31]

That car is SOOOOO illegal for SCCA IT.

[jluetjen]

I often marvel at some of the ads in the SCCA club magazine for Porsches and BMW's which obviously don't fit in an SCCA class, but the seller off-handedly claims to be SCCA legal. It's either a case of:

A) Misleading advertising.
B) The seller does not having a clue what the SCCA rules are,
C) Or else the seller figures the car will always be competitive in ASR (aka: unlimited Can-Am class, regional only catch-all class).

[jaydubya]

Originally posted by Geo31
That car is SOOOOO illegal for SCCA IT.

Curious if you could expand on this statement - seems to be more or less a PCA G class car. Perhaps a PCA G class car could not cross over to this new SCCA class easily?

[Geo31]

Originally posted by jaydubya
Curious if you could expand on this statement - seems to be more or less a PCA G class car. Perhaps a PCA G class car could not cross over to this new SCCA class easily?

The same car we use to demonstrate FULL RACE prep at our seminars. Built to Porsche Club National Class G specs, also fully complies with SCCA GCRs.

*Fully prepped 3.0 litre with only 12 hours. *Equal length, tuned headers.
*Freshly rebuilt 915 with short-shift. *Centerforce competition clutch.
*Full cage, with Cup Car-style intrusion protection.
*On-board fire supression.
*16 gallon fuel cell.
*Cobra racing buckets with braces, 6-point harness.
*High rate torsion bars, drop-link adjustable stabilizers, adjustable racing Konis, camber brace, bump steered, lowered, aligned, corner balanced, ventilated and slotted rotors.
*Carbon fiber nose, rear “bumper” with difusser, aluminum splitter, IROC whale tail.
*BBS wheels, Goodyear "slicks", rain tires. Lots, lots more . . . . . no expense spared.


Short shift is illegal.
Bump steer correction is illegal
Ventillated and slotted rotors are illegal unless they are stock.
All of the above bodywork is illegal.
Don't know the wheels size, but if they are wider than 8.5" they are illegal as well.

[RaceProEngineer]

WOW! I had better write a retraction - and FAST!

How's this? Add ballast, put bumpers back on, extend the shift lever and knob, fill in the slots in the rotors, remove cage anti-intrusion and reinstall driver door panel, raise front ride height (eliminating need for bump steer correction) - (with all this weight we probably do not need any ballast - forget the ballast) - and then go!

On second thought, this sounds like an awful lot of effort in order to go SLOWER!

-----------------------

Seriously, Gentlemen, I did not mean to mislead anyone. It is my oversight for not reading the GCR's IT regs. When we ran the car with SCCA, we simply registered in the GT division - path of least resistance. I sincerely apologise for the inaccuracy, and for hijacking Dave's thread.

Ed LoPresti

[jluetjen]

I'm not picking on you Ed, it's just that the PCA rules and the SCCA rules work very much to cross purposes. Both have objectives that they try to accomplish, but they follow different paths. A perfectly built Class-G car such as this is "neither fish nor foul" in the SCCA world. It's too prep'd for the IT class, while the engine and suspension are nowhere near prep'd enough to be competitive in GT2. (Right now there isn't a Prod class that allows 3 liter motors, but that's due to change). The same applies by the way if someone where to take an IT car over to PCA. The IT engine rules would not be legal for the "Stock" classes, but yet they're merely a drop in the bucket compared to what is needed in PCA's GT class. Lots of people just assume that because something is legal in one sanctioning body, that it must also be legal in another. It just aint so! The whole situation is nether good nor bad in my book, it's just what the world is.

That being said, a person could buy your car, strip and sell the "illegal" parts to recoup some of the purchase price, and then get some stock parts from a dismantler to put the car back in IT spec. This very well may be a more economic path then buying a stock car on ebay and preparing it to IT rules comparable to the work that your shop has done. The caveat is that the buyer (and a seller who wants to be helpful) really need to read the rules, and in the case of the SCCA, the monthly updates, corrections and revisions.

You make the point that it's an awful lot of trouble to go to, to make the car slower. If it's ultimate speed that the buyer wants, I'd recommend buying a Radical or strapping a sport motorbike engine onto a kart. If you want to race on a somewhat level playing field with other Porsches, take the car as it exists to PCA's G-Class. If you want to mix it up with on a comparably level playing field with BMWs, Mazdas and various other hot cars in a multi-manufacturer race, then convert it and go SCCA IT racing. To be honest, I doubt that the driver in the car during the heat of the battle is going to notice a huge difference. Is Bill Auberland less of a racer for racing in the slower Grand-Am Cup series then when he races in the faster Speed Touring series? Nah, he's flat out and having a blast in either car. Is a Speed Touring car any "better" then the slower "Grand-Am Cup" car? No. They're just different solutions developed for different sets of rules. Both of the Turner Motorsports BMW's are pretty highly modified and tuned within the rules under which they will be competing.

[jaydubya]

Hi George - thanks very much for the info!

The following would be easy to fix and wouldn't affect the car's competitiveness much:

Originally posted by Geo31

Short shift is illegal.
Bump steer correction is illegal
Ventillated and slotted rotors are illegal unless they are stock.
Don't know the wheels size, but if they are wider than 8.5" they are illegal as well.

What about this one:

All of the above bodywork is illegal.

Is it the fiberglass bumpers - perhaps SCCA requires that you maintain the stock ones? I ask because this would apply to my car as well.

What about the spoiler? A rear spoiler was an option on the SC.

What about a/c? Do all components need to remain in the car?

Yes, I'm going to read the rules now too

Cheers,

Jeff

[jaydubya]

Found a few answers in the rules.

a/c can be deleted.

I think a rear spoiler is ok on a 911SC. Rules state "Dealer installed or limited production front/rear spoilers/air dams/wings are prohibited.", but I don't think that the rear 911SC spoilers were either of those things, unless a car's options are considered "limited production".

Rear f/g bumper probably not legal.

Front f/g bumper/spoiler - not sure, don't understand the rules...

Some of the SCCA IT allowed things are not legal for PCA stock classes (offset ball joints for more camber, ANY limited slip differential, etc.), but would be ok in prepared classes.

[RaceProEngineer]

John,

I deserve to be picked on for such an ill-informed statement, so pick away!

We originally offered this car with ALL the stock items as spares, along with many racing-specific extras (3 complete sets BBS wheels with slicks, choice of 2 tails, etc.) Naturally, the asking price was considerably higher. One would already have had all the necessary parts to switch back and forth - and then some.

On the advice of several knowledgable individuals, including "our own" Wayne Dempsey, we sold the stock stuff and most of the spares separately, primarily to reduce the asking price of the package.

And your point about competitiveness is well taken! This car was built DELIBERATELY for PCA Class G racing. It is still plenty quick in SCCA GT2, but not against a tube-frame chassis with a high-compression motor, WIDE slicks, and a good driver!

It might be a personal preference, but my son and I would far rather run the car in its advanced state of preparedness in either PCA G or SCCA GT2, than to "dumb it down" to comply with other regs. After bringing it along this far in development, where everything works very well, it seems a shame to "go backwards".

Ed

[Geo31]

The only modification allowed to the body of the car in IT is the addition of an air dam and there is a limitation to how far off the ground the air dam can extend (my recollection is the center of the wheel, but don't take my recollection for fact).

So, the bumpers (and brackets) must remain stock.

As for the tail, IIRC the tail was not a factory option during those years. The Weissach edition did come with the tail from the factory, but that model has not been classified.

[jaydubya]

Originally posted by Geo31
As for the tail, IIRC the tail was not a factory option during those years. The Weissach edition did come with the tail from the factory, but that model has not been classified.

I think there were at least two official factory option rear spoilers for the SC during the '81-83 years (besides the '80 Weissach spoiler).

Some info here under "Body Trim and Fittings" and here .


Cheers,

Jeff

[mark_d_mcguire]

I'd love to run in this class. I have a competitive G car, and getting a couple more local races at Road Atlanta would be awesome.

After reading the IT rules, I have a couple of questions:

Someone mentioned the short shifter was illegal. I didn't see any reference to that. If it falls under the 'unless explicitly listed' type of rule, I suppose any updated shifter mechenism is illegal, so is my WEVO out?

The stock bumper note by George above is my biggest concern. I have a FG bumper/spoiler and really don't want to swap it out to run here. Are these illegal too?

On the rear spoiler, is the Weissach considered its own model or an option? I can't imagine anyone racing a 911 without a rear spoiler.