First time on the track with the 911

[mmn710]

Took my 88 911 to the track for the first time this past weekend. EMRA had a track day at Monticello race track, so I figured I'd give it a try. Car ran great but during my second 20 minute session my brakes started to fade real bad and my brake pedal started to lose pressure where when I got back into the pits, it went to the floor.

The car has as listed:
Zimmerman drilled rotors
Hawk hps
Dot 5 fluid
Steel braided lines

From what I was told I boiled my fluid which caused my brakes to fail on me. Does anyone have any suggestions on a different set up I should go for. I was thinking of flushing the fluid and use ate blue brake fluid and ebc yellow stuff??

[38D]

Flush the fluid with something better like Motul (cheaper option) or Castrol SRF (the best available)

[Eagledriver]

Find a way to get cooling air to the front brakes. Use high temp brake fluid.

-Andy

[Astroboy]

If it happens while you're at the track, you can bleed the brake lines and get past the boiled fluid. That'll help you, too.
You probably boiled the fluid during your first session, then, when you got things hot again during your second, it didn't take much to scorch it again and your pedal went away.

There are a couple of great "how to" articles around...
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/mult_bleed_brakes/mult_bleed_brakes.htm

[911st]

A soft pedal is fluid boiling.

A firm pedal with lack of stopping power is the brake pads.

Getting air to the brakes can help both to a degree.

High temp fluid can firm up the pedal. In most cases the fluid should be bleed within a couple of days before the event. I like the Castor SFP as it has a very high wet boiling temp so a fresh bleed dose not become so critical. It is hugely expensive at about $80 a qt.

Street pads and even street sport pads exceed there usable temp range quickly. Race pads do not stop well when cold and make noise. However, when the get hot they can stop better than what you have experienced on the street with normal pads.

After that it is larger rotors for more thermal reserve and calipers that can take larger pads with more surface area so the heat per area is lower.

Most new drivers tend to not use there brakes effectively which can put more stress on them than is necessary.

A well driven full weight 011 with proper fluid, pads and air flow can work well for DE//TT's.

However, at this point things can get hot enough to burn up the dust seals.

[Joehand1]

I was at Barber last weekend in my 87 911 in 110 degree heat, the brakes were the best thing about my car..but I had new brake fluid.

Acceleration left a bit to be desired.

[mmn710]

Thanks for all the inputs. I'm definetly going to invest in some good fluids. What do you guys recomend for a good street/track pads. I heard ebc yellow stuff is pretty good, just don't know how they are on our cars?

[IROC]

Originally Posted by 911st

Most new drivers tend to not use there brakes effectively which can put more stress on them than is necessary.

Bingo. Assuming there is nothing wrong with your fluid, etc., I would suspect you weren't braking in the most heat-efficient manner. From a physics standpoint, decelerating the car from say 100mph to 40mph for a turn generates a fixed amount of frictional heat energy regardless of how quickly or slowly the car is decelerated. The longer you brake, however, the less time the brakes have to cool (as you're effectively on the brakes a larger percentage of time during a lap), so the best thing to do is to brake as hard and as fast as possible, slow the car and get back off the brakes.

On a 911, I have always liked Pagid orange pads for a good street/track pad.

[911st]

Originally Posted by Joehand1

...the brakes were the best thing about my car...

Acceleration left a bit to be desired.

On my full weight 85 I am not finding power to be much of a factor on the track I run. If I can get good exit speed into the long straights I am surprised how well I can stay with most cars including some of the GT3's and 996TT''s with so so drivers in them.

Cornering, braking, and my driving seem to be more important than HP.



Mike -- That is cool info about braking. I did not know the why other than slowing down more than needed.

[fredmeister]

ate blue or gold is fine for de days at $10-12 per liter. you said dot5 fluid which is silicon based and hope that was a typo....this is bad stuff to use on any car that is driven. only good for collector cars that sit in garages.
change it out before the event and bleed it during if the pedal gets soft. you need to get air to the stock rotors and you should be fine no matter how aggressive you get. stock oem brakes are great on our cars. dust seals will need frequent replacement as they will burn up though once you start driving really hard. this becomes a "pita" every season.
install a cooling system to the front rotors should be a great improvement, including a must removal of those dust shields.

[fredmeister]

i always say "brakes are for fags" whenever some track buddies complain......kidding only, but i had to say it.
have fun.
fred

[450knotOffice]

I had the same issues (as many here eventually do). I solved my issues by removing the brake dust/water shields, installing the 993 brake cooling air deflectors (cheap and very effective at getting a lot more air to the brakes), and using a high boiling point brake fluid similar to Motul.

No more issues for me.

[Emission]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

I had the same issues (as many here eventually do). I solved my issues by removing the brake dust/water shields, installing the 993 brake cooling air deflectors (cheap and very effective at getting a lot more air to the brakes), and using a high boiling point brake fluid similar to Motul.

No more issues for me.

+1

Same exact thing I did.

- Mike

[911st]

No track brake pads?

Just backing plate removal, high temp fluid, and 993 air deflectors?

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by IROC

Bingo. Assuming there is nothing wrong with your fluid, etc., I would suspect you weren't braking in the most heat-efficient manner. From a physics standpoint, decelerating the car from say 100mph to 40mph for a turn generates a fixed amount of frictional heat energy regardless of how quickly or slowly the car is decelerated. The longer you brake, however, the less time the brakes have to cool (as you're effectively on the brakes a larger percentage of time during a lap), so the best thing to do is to brake as hard and as fast as possible, slow the car and get back off the brakes.

On a 911, I have always liked Pagid orange pads for a good street/track pad.

Furthermore, cooling has more effect at higher speeds so you dissipate more of that heat if you are going fast while braking.

[911st]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Furthermore, cooling has more effect at higher speeds so you dissipate more of that heat if you are going fast while braking.

Another cool point. I love this stuff!

If your brakes are overheating. Go faster!

[mmn710]

Just ordered Motul brake fluid. Still debating on what pads I should run. I also heard some good things about the Hawk HP plus?

I'm also gonna looking into getting those brake ducts from the 993. How much do they go for and would that be a dealer part?

[38D]

Pagid yellows or blacks for pads
Motul or SRF for fluid

[mmn710]

Anything less expensive? The pagis's are $260 for just the fronts. Thats a little on the pricey side.

[911st]

Do a search under pads for a lot of good info.

Note that the genneral belive is that a streetable pad and a track pad are two different things. Also, that the brake dust can be harmfull to you rims.