87 Carrera.. Best wheels & tire sizes for AX and track days?

[maclaren65]

I'm currently running 16" FUCHS (6" & 7") on my 87 Carrera 3.2. This has worked ok for autocross (AX) the last two years. I won my PCA class running Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Specs.

I'm ready to get a second set of wheels and with sticker tires for AX, which is going to bump me dow a class or two in the AX series. Additionally, I'd like to start doing some track days, mostly for fun and the experience, so I will not be racing at the track but just learning more about how to drive the car at higher speeds.

I know ideally I would have a separate set of wheels and tires for AX and the track since each type of driving has different requirements (AX short runs and tires need to heat up quickly, track longer runs and tires heat up slower and last longer)

Many of the guys in the SC and 3.2 Carreras at the PCA AX I compete in run 15" wheels (Hoosier's: 225/45-15 on front and 275/35-15 on rear). Is there a wheel size that would be best to allow me to be competitive in AX and still do track days? Perhaps bumping up to 16" (7" & 8") or up to 17" wheels. I've read that with the 16"x9" the tire options are very limited. I've been thinking of running Toyo RA1 tires for AX and track days

Thoughts? Thanks!

Richard

[KTL]

16x9 sizes are limited in street tire offerings. But you can still find some 245/45 tires in Hoosier, Toyo Hankook, Kumho, BF Goodrich R compounds.

Toyo RA1 is a good tire. Not the fastest but wears very well. They are consistently grippy right up to cording them. You're best served by having them shaved when new. They'll last longer.

Wheel tire sizes are dependent on how much you want to spend and how much you're willing to modify the car. 16x7/8 is usually run with 205 or 225 front and 225 or 245 rear tires. Front typically requires some modification to maintain fender clearance- increased camber and shaved/rolled fender lips. Once you do that, you can fit 16x8/9 of the appropriate offsets and go with 225 front and 245 rear.

If you go up to 17 in. you get quite a bit heavier in both the wheels and the tires and thus are increasing your unsprung weight. But you afford yourself more tire options. You can get away with running a 235 front tire and 255 or 275 rear tire on 17x8 front and 17x9.5 or 10 rear. Do a search and you'll find A LOT of information on this topic.

[racer]

You can run track days without super sticky rubber too you know In fact, if relatively new, it might be advised by some to NOT show up on super sticky rubber so as to aid in your learning process.

You can run on just about any size wheel (15", 16" 17 etc - how large is the budget?)

On my SC a few years back I ran Toyo RA1. 225-50-16 front and 245-45-16 rear on 8" front and 9" rear fuchs. Same tires also used on 7" front and 8" rear fuchs. I ran the toyos as street, AX and DE tires. I beat folks on hoosiers.. Some beat me.. in the end, the driver is more important than the tires (at the local club level it seems)

While yes, you want AX tires to heat up quickly, if you were serious about AX, you'd run Hoosiers or V710 Khumos, no? The false issue about being "quick" at DE is that, there are no timers.. no prizes.. its just ego..

If you are running well on the car currently with the Dunlops, I don't know that you would need to change "mid stream" as it were.

The biggest limiting issues will be on TIRE availability. There are fewer and fewer 16" sizes that work well on the 911. Jumping to 17" wheels would help this a little bit (think 235 front, 255 rear)

[PatrickB]

I ran 16x8/9's for a few seasons on RA1's. Until you set up the suspension with bigger T-bars/sways, you will be eating tires up quickly. I currently run 17x8/9 Fikse's with 245/45 & 275/40. Excellent grip, and I can get 40+ heat cycles out of a set of NT01's. Better grip with V710's, but only 16-18 heat cycles... The 15" wheels with smaller overall diameter tires are the ticket for AX. Better gearing, and WAY cheaper tires!

[maclaren65]

Kevin, Racer, and Patrick,

Thanks for the info. My 87 Carrera has stock sway bars, Turbo Tie Rods, Bilstien HDs in the front and Bilstien Sports in the back. I think the front fenders have been rolled, not sure about the rears. The previous owner had 17" 964 CUP style wheels on at one point.

Perhaps before the 2012 AX series starts, it's best to get a set of 15" wheels and go for the Hoosiers or V710 Khumos. IF 15s are best for that competition, then I could focus my attention on getting the best set of wheels and tires for it. I could run my 16" (6s and 7s) on the track or get a pair of 16" (8") for the rear and put my 7" in the front and park the 6" FUCHS. I could use sticky street tires on the track for now. Maybe upgrade my Dunlaps next year after they wear down more.

I'd like to keep the budget under $3k if possible.

Richard

[ERN911]

Best set up is a set of cookies cheap enough to purchase install a good set of tires 225-45-15 or 225-50-15 depending on what you prefer this way you can rotate all around.

[ERN911]

and you can fit all 4 tires on the rear with the seats down depending on how tall you are, if not you can fit 3 in the back and 1 on the passemger floor, leaves enough room for your helmet and other stuff, like jack cordless gun etc...

[maclaren65]

Originally Posted by ERN911

Best set up is a set of cookies cheap enough to purchase install a good set of tires 225-45-15 or 225-50-15 depending on what you prefer this way you can rotate all around.

ERN911 I was thinking the same thing. I'd go for a set of 15" FUCHS, but the Cookies are probably less and would do the job too.

[Evan Fullerton]

Cookie cutters are so cheap, it is almost cheaper to go buy another set of them when you have a set of almost worn out tires rather than pay mounting fees twice. That is how I ended up with 4 sets of them. lol

[maclaren65]

Originally Posted by Evan Fullerton

Cookie cutters are so cheap, it is almost cheaper to go buy another set of them when you have a set of almost worn out tires rather than pay mounting fees twice. That is how I ended up with 4 sets of them. lol

Evan: Got a set of 15" 7" and 8"? for sale?

[Evan Fullerton]

Cookie cutters were only available in 6" and 7". I believe you could get the Phone dial wheels in 7" and 8" in the early 911 offset but don't hold me to that. I bought a pair of 8" Fuchs to make 7" and 8" for my car.

If you want Cookie Cutters though and are in SoCal I imagine I could let of a few of the 16 I have go now that I have several other sets of wheels in different sizes as well. I probably don't need 6 sets of wheels for one car.

[maclaren65]

Evan: I'll think about the 15" (6" & 7") Cookie Cutters. Thanks for the offer. I am in NorCal (Bay Area) , but we do visit SoCal from time to time. I'll ping you if we decide to come down. Thanks!

[maclaren65]

Anyone running 15" (6" & 7") Cookie Cutters on their 77-89 911 for DEs?

[KTL]

The 944Spec guys in NASA use the cookies all the time.

A friend with a nicely upgraded '77 Targa with a 3.2 Carrera engine in it used them too. Worked just fine.

That said, i'd shoot for a set of 7 & 8 in. widths (phone dials) because the 205 and 225 tire widths are a better fit for 7/8 wheels. I've also used the 7 in. wheels on all four corners with 225/50-16 tires. Not the absolute fastest setup, but it's not a hindrance by any means. The key is to use longer studs and spacers at the rear to increase the track width. I also agree that the "square" setup is a nice one for the DE purpose. It's a nice feature to be able to rotate the wheels around the car to balance tire wear.

[maclaren65]

Hi All,

What do you think of this set of wheels for autocross use? Thanks for your input.

FUCHS 15" x 7" and 15" x 8", 23.3 ET
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/644908-fs-staggered-15-fuchs-7-8-e-pa.html

Richard

[Evan Fullerton]

They would work great with 225/45/15's square or 205/50/15's on the front but the price seems a little steep given the condition. Refinishing them Magnus Walker style isn't terribly difficult http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/638194-porsche-collection-out-control-hobby-20.html if you have access to a bead blaster but it does take time and patience but is probably the easiest way to do it.

[Porsche 2]

For sale: one set of Porsche "phone dials" wheels, front 7x16, rear 8x16, with Toyo Peroxes RA1's, 225/50/ZR 16 on the 7", and 245/45ZR 16 on the 8", all off my 911 SC track car. Tires are almost new. SOCAL pick-up, $750.

[maclaren65]

Hi Porsche 2 -- Thank you for the offer of your 16" Telephone-Design (i.e., Phone Dial) wheels. I am looking for 15" wheels now. I will contact you if I change my mind. -- Richard

[Walt Fricke]

Seems to me the phone dials are rather a heavy rim. A search for wheel weight ought to come up with a couple of charts guys have compiled.

Guys were thinking 17s were the hot setup for a while. Perhaps because they could add monster brake calipers without clearance issues. Or because they looked cool, had good tire selection, etc.

But it turns out that for both autocross and track use you are probably ahead of the game to use 15s, because you can get tires with a smaller diameter for them. This helps with accelleration, and it also keeps the unsprung rotating (inertia) weight down.

I've raced on 7x15 cookies for 20 years as fronts. And performance doesn't seem to drop off much if I run them, with the same tire size, on the rear. Sticky DOT tires, or full slicks, work fine with both. 225 is as wide as I think you'd want to go, with the lowest aspect ratio you can get. If you put too wide a tire on a rim, sidewall stiffness suffers.

[maclaren65]

Walt: I did see Phone Dials are heavier than FUCHS and Cookies. I'm not that interested in the Phone Dials. I would love to get a set of 15" (7" front and 8" rear) FUCHS. I would consider Cookies in 15" (6" front and 7" rear) or go for 7" all around, with the added benefit of being able to rotate the tires to even out wear.

As mentioned in the thread above, I have the factory 16" (6" front and 7" rear) FUCHS on my 87 Carrera now. If I switch to 16" 8" FUCHS in the rear for street use and move my 16"7" to the front and run 15" 7" in the front for DEs (FUCHS or Cookies), would I need to get longer bolts for the wheels? If so, are they difficult to replace? Thanks!