Pros and cons of tracking a gutted $30k '78-'89 911 ?

[Fly911]

Sugarwood, driving or racing an old 911 is not about lap times! Not at all! It's all about fun! An old 911 can be dangerous in the hands of an unskilled driver. But to master the quirkiness and idiosyncrasies of the old 911 is the most rewarding thing you can do with your pants on! The car will punish you on your mistakes, probably more than any other car. But the reward when you get it right, and you learn how to drive a "slow" car fast, is much more fun than just jump in a fast car and drive! You can buy a 500Hp Corvette and put on slicks, and have great lap times. But that doesn't make you a good driver. What makes you a good driver is to gradually master the old 911, get the line right, get the breaking points as late as possible, keep you head cool (and the gas pedal down) when the car starts to over steer, use the momentum and the 200Hp to propel you out of the turns, and gradually keep up with the high horsepower cars. That is much more rewarding than some tenth of a second on your lap times!

And the sound of the air cooled flat six! There is no engine out there that sounds like that! And the smell of hot oil. The 911 is organic, it's you and the car. No electronic nannies to rectify your mistakes. So you stop making them. Getting better. Going faster. Having more fun. That is what 911 racing is all about. The lap times will come. And you will be competitive.

And then, when your race or session is done, sit down and enjoy the beautiful lines of the old 911. I can drool over the lines and shapes on my 911 for hours. It's a sculpture. Like a beautiful woman. Like a breath taking scenery. You never get tired of it. You can never say that about a Miata, a Corvette or even a 996/997/991.

It's a life long love for a car that you have invested so much time and money in, and every time you drive it, it rewards you, and you know that your investment and love is 100% right!

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

How can a car with 250hp match a 475hp 991 GT3?
The power to weight ratio is not even in the same universe.

Easy, compare Lap times of an off-the-lot GT3 with typical well prepared "E" Class lap times. They are very comparable and a lot faster than a Spec Miata or other $10k race car.
http://fastestlaps.com/models/porsche-911-gt3-991

Hp/wt affects acceleration only.

Grip/wt affects braking distance and cornering speeds.

Here is a comparison of another old underpowered 70s 911 with a modern Porsche Cup race car. This 911 is heavier than "E" Class with full interior, and about 30 more hp but useful for illustration.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/782924-fast-through-corner-1960s-technology-still-shines.html

On certain tracks like Fontana and VIR that have very long "drag strip" straights, the car with double the hp will still have the edge. On more technical tracks the lighter more nimble car can be very effective. In racing you will always be grouped into classes according to relative performance by hp/wt, aero, and tires just like Grand Am, Pirelli Cup and other series, so effectively a 250 hp 911 will never be in direct competition with a well prepared GT3 Cup car.

[Charles Freeborn]

Even in my bone stock '74 with all of it's 175 hp I can catch the faster cars in the turns and hang with them. I can out brake most too - with stock set up & street / track pads. Straights - no contest - I lose. I've had many an instructor say that you'll learn much more in an underpowered fully manual (no nannies) car.
If I had a spare 30k I'd buy that car in a heartbeat.
-C

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

Here is a comparison of another old underpowered 70s 911 with a modern Porsche Cup race car. This 911 is heavier than "E" Class with full interior, and about 30 more hp but useful for illustration.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/782924-fast-through-corner-1960s-technology-still-shines.html

To be fair, that is not a typical classic 911. Jack's car has almost a 100hp boost from a 1995 engine. Jack also has custom 11" tires on that thing!

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

To be fair, that is not a typical classic 911. Jack's car has almost a 100hp boost from a 1995 engine. Jack also has custom 11" tires on that thing!

Granted. Jack's car is much further developed than a $30k "E" car but for illustration of the point, holds it's own against modern $150k Cup cars with nearly twice the HP. In actual racing these cars would never compete against each other but rather dice it up with classmates of similar hp/wt. The fun in racing is having a large field of similar cars to chase and be chased by. Having the most modern, fastest, trickiest is just not necessary, and some might even say "less fun".

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

Granted. Jack's car is much further developed than a $30k "E" car but for illustration of the point, holds it's own against modern $150k Cup cars with nearly twice the HP. In actual racing these cars would never compete against each other but rather dice it up with classmates of similar hp/wt. The fun in racing is having a large field of similar cars to chase and be chased by. Having the most modern, fastest, trickiest is just not necessary, and some might even say "less fun".

Actually, in POC classing you see old race new all the time.

[ted]

Originally Posted by Fly911

Sugarwood, driving or racing an old 911 is not about lap times! Not at all! It's all about fun! An old 911 can be dangerous in the hands of an unskilled driver. But to master the quirkiness and idiosyncrasies of the old 911 is the most rewarding thing you can do with your pants on! The car will punish you on your mistakes, probably more than any other car. But the reward when you get it right, and you learn how to drive a "slow" car fast, is much more fun than just jump in a fast car and drive! You can buy a 500Hp Corvette and put on slicks, and have great lap times. But that doesn't make you a good driver. What makes you a good driver is to gradually master the old 911, get the line right, get the breaking points as late as possible, keep you head cool (and the gas pedal down) when the car starts to over steer, use the momentum and the 200Hp to propel you out of the turns, and gradually keep up with the high horsepower cars. That is much more rewarding than some tenth of a second on your lap times!

That about sums it up.
Master an old 911 and most other cars will seem easy to drive at speed.
My IMSA GTO/Trans AM Camaros have double or triple the power but take less car control skill than my modified 911.

[dgmark]

If you have not experienced an early 911 dig under power you need to. E racers know what I am talking about. 209 laps at Watkins Glen is not slow.

[drola]

since i agree with everyone's opinion on how much fun a car like this would be, i put a deposit on this one and will enjoy it as soon as it gets delivered to me. can't wait
i actually found this thread after the fact.......
i have a 912/6 with a 2.7 that i was going to turn into a track car. at the end of the day i would have less into the 912 than this 3.2 but i think this car will be a lot more fun. and all the hard work is done
time to sell the 912 i guess

[PatrickB]

A great deal!!! This is a lot of car for the $$$. Especially with a full cage! The weak link will be the trans. 3 seasons on the same 915, is on borrowed time... But just in time to add different ratio gears. The engine will damn near go forever! I would sell the wheels, and get 2 decent set of used 17" wheels, maybe Fikse. 17" has so many more different options on tires!!! Get this before it goes away!

[911 Rod]

As they say ..."It's more fun driving a slow car fast than a fast car slow"

[ted]

Originally Posted by 911 Rod

As they say ..."It's more fun driving a slow car fast than a fast car slow"

I think that mainly applies to driving within the speed limits on the street.
Where a fast car is frustrating because you have to drive it slow to not break the law.

But on the track...
Why drive a fast car slow at the track?
So is it more fun to drive a fast car fast?
Which would you rather drive fast? a slow car or a fast car?

On topic you drive a 230hp 911 at the track because no other 230hp front engine car is going to handle like a 911.
The challenge is not the lack of power but the 911 and its unique rear engine weight bias and learning to control it in the corners.

[DanS911]

[QUOTE=drola;8999057]since i agree with everyone's opinion on how much fun a car like this would be, i put a deposit on this one and will enjoy it as soon as it gets delivered to me. can't wait

WOW congratulations!
Now come play with us at some Gold Coast/Suncoast PCA DE events.
Get you ready for 48HRS at Sebring next year!

[drola]

[QUOTE=DanS911;9045856]

Originally Posted by drola

since i agree with everyone's opinion on how much fun a car like this would be, i put a deposit on this one and will enjoy it as soon as it gets delivered to me. can't wait

WOW congratulations!
Now come play with us at some Gold Coast/Suncoast PCA DE events.
Get you ready for 48HRS at Sebring next year!

yes that is the plan
not sure if i'll be racing, but i want to do as many de's as i can. that is why i bought this car. and also to give my 964 a rest from track duties.
i put street tires on it and have been driving it around town. amazing how well a fully built track 911 drives on the street. aside from the LOUD exhaust (which i like) and the whole climbing in and out thing, it's actually a nice driving car.

[DanS911]

In my track only 3.0L "76 911 I have always maintained that I am "faster than a badly driven" GT3.

Put a good driver in there and it is no contest. But then we aren't talking about racing each other here we are talking about a far more complicated situation.

If it fun/$? is it fun/skills? is it fun/ what I can afford?
Either way I love every minute. Heading for Sebring this weekend:-P

[drola]

Originally Posted by DanS911

In my track only 3.0L "76 911 I have always maintained that I am "faster than a badly driven" GT3.

Put a good driver in there and it is no contest. But then we aren't talking about racing each other here we are talking about a far more complicated situation.

If it fun/$? is it fun/skills? is it fun/ what I can afford?
Either way I love every minute. Heading for Sebring this weekend:-P

i'll be at sebring the following weekend 14-15th

[drola]

just did 2 days at sebring with pboc / gold coast in the car. did palm beach the saturday before as well as april 1st. so 4 track days with car thus far
soooo much fun.
still working out the bugs with the car. but overall it did great and kept up with cars that i didn't think it would keep up with. granted i was promoted to solo on saturday so i still have lots and lots to learn but really starting to get comfortable and confident with the car and its limits
one thing hit me though, this stuff gets expensive !!!!

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by drola

one thing hit me though, this stuff gets expensive !!!!

In what ways is this getting expensive? What are you spending on?

[drola]

tires, rotors, brake pads, de registration fees, gas, hotels, food, may need to tear down the tranny soon to replace 2&3rd syncros, had to rebuild 2 cv joints, output flange seals, oil changes, brake fluid flush. and that's just after 4 track days
yes, this is an expensive hobby

[RichardNew]

My basic rule is to budget $2,000 per day and you'll be just fine. Some days you'll spend less and some days you'll spend more.

Motels, tires and brake pads all add up.

Richard Newton
Track Day Primer