Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R opinions?

[gliding_serpent]

Any experiences with these tires?

I have a set of BBS RS 7x16 and 8x16 wheels to use for the track. I want to pair them with 225/50/16 and 245/45/16's. Not interested in slicks (our track surface is too rough and chews them up too fast, nor is my suspension slick ready), but R comps would be ideal. Things is, in good old Canada our choices are much more limited.

A few options I can get in these sizes are:

Bridgestone RE-11a. I run those in 205/225 for the street/track now, and are a solid tire. 200 A A. They last and a few local guys rave about them for dual purpose. I like them.

Toyo R888's. Love or hate them. 100 AA A. Getting a bit outdated.

Toyo Ra1. 100 AA A. amateur racers choice years ago, but long in the tooth.

Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R. top of my list right now with the 60 AA A rating. As a nearly track only tire, I figure it is the next best thing to slicks given it may see some wet use. Not a lot of info out there now for our cars, but popular and favorable reviews compared to the above tire options (softness aside).

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

The local amateur racers at our track rave about Nitto NT-01's as they seem to be the perfect balance of durability, grip and cost (Kind of like what the RA1's used to be). But I can't get them in the desired sizes.

[juanbenae]

Originally Posted by gliding_serpent

Any experiences with these tires?

I have a set of BBS RS 7x16 and 8x16 wheels to use for the track. I want to pair them with 225/50/16 and 245/45/16's. N

Toyo Ra1. 100 AA A. amateur racers choice years ago, but long in the tooth.

out drive a shaved set of these & we'll be askin you how we can go faster...

[winders]

Come on, Toby, the RA1's are crappy tires compared to modern DOT race rubber like the Hoosier R7's.

[gliding_serpent]

I have driven r888's, never ra1's, but a racer who swore by ra1's (and later appreceated the r888's for their advantages, i.e. More resistant to overheating than the ra1's) now thinks the nitto nt-01's are miles ahead of the ra1's (and r888's)... although both provide a similar concept.

Ra1's are a great tire, but i think the argument is that times have changed, the ra1's have not... And some even feel that the current ra1's are not what they once were. Who knows. Counter speculation is that toyo made the ra1's too long lasting, thus they were bad for business and the phase out attempt was made.

[gliding_serpent]

Back to the trofeo r's. They seem tempting but i have heard little on heat cycle characteristics. A down side is that they are assymetric, preventing rotation options. Plus is that allows a wet compound/tread on the inner surface (i presume they run part wet compound)

[juanbenae]

Originally Posted by winders

Come on, Toby, the RA1's are crappy tires compared to modern DOT race rubber like the Hoosier R7's.

sure they are compared to a slick, but unless he's trailering, or prepared to rack tires on the roof or has a tire trailer the RA-1 are a good choice for road to DE applications. I can not speak for GS skill level, but the spec 911's in your club continue to make pretty good use of them.

I am aware the spec class was considering a switch hoosiers this year, but the toyos prevailed again in the end. most of the mid pack guys I was racing with wanted nothing to do with a single weekend tires much preferring the durability of the RA-!

t

[gliding_serpent]

Guys wanting absolute lap times go hoosier... No question. But ra1's are great for the rest of us.

My skill level is probably still pretty limited as far as things go. I am still new to the 911. I run in red with bmw/porsche (3 of 4 skill groups) but i am not racing yet. Slicks are not for me due to cost, durability (rough track surface), not racing, and improper suspension to take full advantage.

I can drive the limits of r888's and michelin sport cups comfortably on my other cars, and i figure r comps are best for my 911's suspension at this point. Especially since i may hit some wet. I may opt for a roof rack, or a tire trailer. Pros and cons to each.

I drive 1.5 hrs to our track. Not keen to do that with r comps. Call me cheap. Worked great with my re-11a's

[Driven97]

No personal experience, but GM picked the Trofeo R to go on their Z28. Say what you will about GM, but they don't mess around much with performance. The z28 got pretty glowing reviews across the board for track use, including good things said about those tires, but take it with a grain of salt. Not sure if the goodness of the trashcan sized tires translates down to the (surprisingly affordable) 15" sizes, either.

Chevy has since moved on to the Sport Cup 2 for the z06, possibly because they're (somehow) rated as 200tw vs the 60tw Trofeo R.

Trofeo R:

Sport Cup 2:

[gliding_serpent]

The trofeo r and sport cup seem to match up, even tread patterns look similar. The sport cup2 i don't know much about... But michelin does incredible things. Look like "cheater" treads to me.

[KTL]

Talk of the Michelins is somewhat pointless since they don't make anything in our sizes. Sizes are only 18" diameter & up.

I wouldn't let the Trofeo R's tread pattern influence your decision all that much. After some days on the track, that tread is going to be very shallow and provide reduced wet performance.

The treadwear ratings on the tires are meaningless when you're talking different manufacturers. The intent behind this numbering system is to use 100 as a "control" tire in the manufacturer's various tires. From that 100, above or below, you get a feel for their tires' wear relative to each other. However, another manufacturer's 100 control tire may be significantly different. So Bridgestone's 100 tire is not equivalent to BFG's 100 tire and so on.

Tire Tech Information - Uniform Tire Quality Grade (UTQG) Standards

[gliding_serpent]

For sure ktl. But their super sports are 300, the sport cups 60, and i have had both and so i have an idea of what 200 in their books should mean. Mind you, i agree it is all a bit of smoke and magic, especially between manufacturers. And yeah, michellin does not support vintage sizes for these tires... Or i would be all over it (xas aside... But those are no longer cutting edge).

Good point on tread depth. My point related to the michelin tires (sport cup, cup 2, supersports being made of dual compound rubber. Dry on outsides, wet compound on the insides. That presumably is part of how they have been able to push up their tire durability. The supersports went up to 300 after they made only the outside 1/3rd softer dry compound. The rest was more durable wet. Apparently they used to do 50/50 (ps2) and the 66/33 split resulted in no less cornering grip, but the overall longer life. Now, that is presumably for street cars that lack proper negative camber, and which tend to ride the outside of the tire in cornering anyway. Cool tires. You can actually see the variations in rubber color for each compound type when the tires have worn down and heat cycled a bit.

So i am assuming that the trofeo r runs dual compound also, not just assymetrical tread... But pirelli is mum on their site. As a result, if you flip the tires to combat assymetrical wear, you may hurt cornering grip. I need to verify what Pirelli does.

Oh, and sport cups, even new, were terrifying in the wet. The super sports are brilliant. Back to 911, Re-11a's were pretty good in the wet. But it is the only tire i have run on my car to date.

[Driven97]

Tire manufacturers can list the treadwear lower but not higher than they actually test. But since they do their own testing, not an independent agency, true the numbers mean little.

If you end up trying one of the newer tires, let us know how they go.

[Cory M]

You might consider picking up a set of 17x8 and 9" wheels. You can increase your tire options and contact patch at the same time..

[gliding_serpent]

Originally Posted by Driven97

If you end up trying one of the newer tires, let us know how they go.

I will report back. Sadly i will have little reference as my re-11a's were 205/225, and i had no prior comparison.

[gliding_serpent]

Originally Posted by Cory M

You might consider picking up a set of 17x8 and 9" wheels. You can increase your tire options and contact patch at the same time..

Yeah, for sure. Still need to use my bbs rs 7+8 for the first time, so not keen on going 17 until my hand is forced.

[KTL]

Jon,

I know what you mean about the old original MPSC. That was a pretty good tire and wore REALLY well. Never got to use it in the rain though.

Incidentally i've been keeping my eye on the Trofeo R because I think i'll end up using these on my '86 for the occasional DE day. I'm hoping they're a good all around tire. Good size selection so far and nice pricing So if you go with these tires, do let us know what your experience finds.

Speaking of rain capability, the RA-1 is a solid rain tire. I used those for a few years on my racecar as my rains. Don't get me wrong, they can't hold a candle to Hoosier rains (especially the H20 which is ungodly good) but they were OK enough to keep me going straight ahead and not crap my pants. Here's a video from Putnam Park in the rain, which is a pretty slippery track in the wet. I get around OK but certainly nothing to boast about. Just showing what the car behaves like. You definitely can't keep trying to run the "dry line" @ Putnam in the rain if you don't have H20s!



I recall doing a DE event with the racecar and the first session or two of the day was a massive downpour. Ran the whole session & at the end, only me and my buddy Stefan were still out there. Everybody else parked it, so it must have been coming down pretty hard. I recall feeling kinda bad for head safety guy flagging the start/finish line . I think he may have hunted down Stefan and gave him some grief for us staying out the whole time. I paid for the day, might as well get me money's worth out of it? Later in the day a guy asks if I had rain tires. Nah, just Toyo RA-1 since they're fairly OK at full tread. He was kinda surprised.




I feel your pain/difficulty in analyzing this. It's tough to find a happy medium that suits your needs for a street driven track car. Eventually if you get really hooked on it, you might end up with a dedicated set of track wheels & tires like most people do. I'm not saying driving to/from the track on your R comp tires can't be done. Lots of people do it. I've done it too.

Just saying that i've found on a number of occasions that the tires get to a point where you're in a dicey position if it rains. Because, 1.) Your track day ends up sucking butt if it rains most of the day and you're stuck with your skittish dry tires, possibly forcing you to sit out most of the day 2.) the ride to/from the track can be a bit dangerous. I once got caught in a strong long duration rain storm on the ride home from the track. I had to pull over and wait out the heavy stuff because I could feel the car was hydroplaning. Even when the rain let up a bit, I could still feel it planing and I was limited to 50 mph on the highway. Any faster than that and it was on the verge of control. Weird feeling of the car "floating" as you're driving straight down the highway! I promised myself I wasn't going to do that again.

Hauling your tires around is pretty easy if you take out the passenger seat. I was able to put all four in the passenger area sitting upright in a line. 16x8/9 with 225/245 tires. I tied them to the passenger door pull and also to the harness bar that spanned the window pillars, along with bracing them against a heavy toolbox sitting on the floor

[gliding_serpent]

Ktl

Yeah, i drove sport cups in the rain, never again. My speed3 chewed up the outers in 4 track days. Not enough camber. Great tire however.

My bbs wheels will be dedicated track tires. Good point on the passanger seat removal. I have been contemplating a tire trailer or roof rack. My strut brace limits my trunk options, and i would still need someone to transport my seat. I will see.

[Driven97]

Funny you mention that, I just happened to find roof rack components that should work on my local CL, I planned on trying everything out in the garage this week. Basically I'm directly copying this:



Except for a bike holder that doesn't require front wheel removal. One tire will go in the frunk, as we're at the weight limit of the Yakima 1A setup (165lb.)

[juanbenae]

I did the roof rack one time. with the weight of the tires and wind resistance at freeway speeds it seemed like it was very, very hard on the rain gutters.

[gliding_serpent]

Full disclosure...

The roof rack idea concerns me about effects to the paint/rails also. Maybe it is unfounded, but my drive to the track is 3 hours total for a weekend. And the final km to the track is a dirt road with dust and bumps and abrasion.

Also, and this is embarassing... But roof racks are so trendy in the vintage car market (with low stance, and wide rubber). Mind you, this trend missed the 911 crowd, and they seem to be used for utility purposes here.

I will digest options. In a perfect world, a removable roof rack might be best. I will see what i can stuff in my car. Sadly a pair of race seats and the harness bar limit easy options.