Most common cause for Green group crashes?

[wayner]

The easy handling 944 started this slipper slope.

What did they used to say back in the day?
-makes a bad driver look good and a good driver look better?

Its a pretty forgiving car compared to air cooled 911s. I know this because I have never spun a 944, 911s yes, but not a 944

[glenndeweirdt]

The fact is most student drivers improve their driving skills more rapidly when the instructor LEAVES the car. We all bring too much of our own perspective and demons and pass much irrelevant information and bad information on to the student. Once we have established the student driver is not a danger to others and themselves we should solo them and get out of the car. Typically, you can tell within 2-3 sessions if a novice driver has potential or if "other sports beckon." The classic book "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Timothy Gallway is a must read and transcends all sports.

[Charles Freeborn]

Originally Posted by glenndeweirdt

The fact is most student drivers improve their driving skills more rapidly when the instructor LEAVES the car. We all bring too much of our own perspective and demons and pass much irrelevant information and bad information on to the student. Once we have established the student driver is not a danger to others and themselves we should solo them and get out of the car. Typically, you can tell within 2-3 sessions if a novice driver has potential or if "other sports beckon." The classic book "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Timothy Gallway is a must read and transcends all sports.

Agreed again. Depends on the instructor, though. When I was learning I had some that talk non-stop and it was all useless. Others that talk a fair amount but it's helpful, and one that said very little, made some hand gestures as to entry and exit points, throttle position and I made great progress with him. The after-session conversation is as or more important than the in car.
But yes, you really can only hone technique when you're alone and don't have any additional distraction. The core job of the instructor is to keep the first-timer and novices out of trouble until they can stand up and walk on their own.

[bpu699]

When the instructor took me in a spin in his car, I immediately became much faster. Much easier to immitate someone, than to try to figure out what they are trying to explain...

[sugarwood]

I agree with that. My first DE, I asked the instructor to take a few laps driving my car. Likda like "A picture is worth a 1000 words".

[KTL]

Definitely helpful to have a seasoned instructor familiar with the old 911, if that's what the student is driving. No offense to the instructors that have newer 911s or 944s or whatever. Just saying that having someone familiar with the technique needed for the old 911 is quite important.

As a related aside, a friend with an '87 911 (my former car) joined us at a NASA event to do HPDE with his 911. He was still very new to driving the old 911. His instructor was a BMW E36 racer and that did my friend no good, as he tried to instruct him to drive it somewhat like the E36. Needless to say he didn't benefit much from that guy's instruction and it made for a very stressful experience each time he'd go out. I told him it's OK to respectfully disagree with the instructor and let him know what's going down is not working.

He drove the car a month prior at a PCA DE event and had an excellent time with a instructor who also has an old 911. So he came away from that event with some great experience and learned a lot. It was disappointing to see him somewhat discouraged by what he got out of the NASA event. I told him don't sweat it and just chalk it up to experience. When we went out together for the final session, he let me drive and my somewhat good driving (not tooting my own horn here, just saying I can drive OK) at least restored his confidence in that what he saw me doing was what he was expecting to be attempting on the track. Again here's another example of seeing someone do it fairly well can be a very helpful learning tool.

My point of sharing that story is it's another example of what can be transpiring with new guys or novices. It's not always the student. In rare instances it may be some misunderstanding between instructor and student. If the student isn't comfortable with what's being instructed, and he/she has a legit understanding he's/she's right about what's going on, it's completely OK to go talk with the head driving instructor or the event administrator and explain the situation. They can coordinate an instructor swap and try to get everybody on the same page. No offense should be taken. Just change things up and keep on driving.

In all honesty the NASA instructor is slower than a broken clock in our NASA race group. So I was a bit disappointed when my buddy got that dude assigned for his instruction. Not trying to be an a-hole here and disparage him just because he drives a POS BMW....... Just telling it like it is. Point being I guess is that PCA is a great place to be for your air cooled 911 instruction? Again that all depends on who you get. The number of air cooleds at the events is few & far between and they can drive a lot different than the newer Porsches that most current attendees drive. That said, many of those "grew up" on the old cars and can still share that experience.

[3rd_gear_Ted]

Slightly relevant response:

For old school 911's, PASM means - Porsche's Are Stabilized Manually

For the slab sided puke green blooded water pumpers, AKA newer 911's, PASM means - Porsche's Are Stabilized Magically!!!

When I have instructed in a modern car, I count how many times "it" takes over.

Then I ask the driver for his count, since they own a high buck Por$che guess what the answer is?

BTW, "hey" is the first step of B.S.

[glenndeweirdt]

Originally Posted by 3rd_gear_Ted

Slightly relevant response:

For old school 911's, PASM means - Porsche's Are Stabilized Manually

For the slab sided puke green blooded water pumpers, AKA newer 911's, PASM means - Porsche's Are Stabilized Magically!!!

When I have instructed in a modern car, I count how many times "it" takes over.

Then I ask the driver for his count, since they own a high buck Por$che guess what the answer is?

BTW, "hey" is the first step of B.S.

That is great-and true! Even though I drive a Cayman all the driving aids (except ABS) are defeated. Sure saves on rear brake pad wear. Interestingly, many of my friends have traded late model Turbos and GT3s for early 911 race cars. They are going a little slower but having more fun.

[bpu699]

One other thing to consider...

The 911 handles much better with a full tank of gas and the stock massive battery .

I always top of the tank before HPDE. Thats an extra 300lbs in front. Leave in the tool kit, etc...

This weight really offsets the happy tail movement of the car...

The prior owner of my car added a 964 turbo appearance kit to the 930. The front bumper is HEAVY metal... I think this really helps the handling. I haven't spun the 930 yet. I have let off the gas in a turn, but it hasn't spun...

I had actually wondered, if adding 50 lbs of lead to the front bumper in many of these cars would permanently solve the issue. Thats not a lot of weight, but would give you a near 50/50 weight distribution...

There is a reason porsche put in a tractor trailer sized battery in the front of these cars...

[RichardNew]

I've had some really bad instructors with PCA. A couple of them had no clue. The best instructor I ever had was Derrick Bell. Vic Elford wasn't bad either.



Richard Newton
Car Techie Stuff

[Charles Freeborn]

Originally Posted by bpu699

One other thing to consider...

The 911 handles much better with a full tank of gas and the stock massive battery .

I always top of the tank before HPDE. Thats an extra 300lbs in front. Leave in the tool kit, etc...

This weight really offsets the happy tail movement of the car...

The prior owner of my car added a 964 turbo appearance kit to the 930. The front bumper is HEAVY metal... I think this really helps the handling. I haven't spun the 930 yet. I have let off the gas in a turn, but it hasn't spun...

I had actually wondered, if adding 50 lbs of lead to the front bumper in many of these cars would permanently solve the issue. Thats not a lot of weight, but would give you a near 50/50 weight distribution...

There is a reason porsche put in a tractor trailer sized battery in the front of these cars...

Uhhh, that's some special gas you're running there... Gas is approximately 6 lbs per gallon. My 911 holds 16 gal +-, so that's 96 lbs. Battery is 30 or so, but even with a lightweight it's still 10 or more. Spare is 20 something, so you're talking maybe 150 lbs total from full tank to bone dry. However, yes, the engineers in the mother country took all of that into consideration so mucking with the formula usually doesn't net favorable results. Unless you've taken a holistic approach and engineered the entire system. Adding a 50 lb brick to the front bumper is probably not a good idea. The suspension experts can explain better, but something about moment balance, inertia, etc. Again, don't overthink this all. Run the car in well maintained stock form and pay more attention to your skills than the car's set up.

[puddy]

I think riding with an instructor was a huge benefit to my driving progression. I'll do it every chance I get. Getting a feel for what is possible in a car on a particular track, even though he is not necessarily driving your car, is very eye opening and confidence boosting.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Charles Freeborn

Uhhh, that's some special gas you're running there... Gas is approximately 6 lbs per gallon. My 911 holds 16 gal +-, so that's 96 lbs. Battery is 30 or so, but even with a lightweight it's still 10 or more. Spare is 20 something, so you're talking maybe 150 lbs total from full tank to bone dry. However, yes, the engineers in the mother country took all of that into consideration so mucking with the formula usually doesn't net favorable results. Unless you've taken a holistic approach and engineered the entire system. Adding a 50 lb brick to the front bumper is probably not a good idea. The suspension experts can explain better, but something about moment balance, inertia, etc. Again, don't overthink this all. Run the car in well maintained stock form and pay more attention to your skills than the car's set up.

Didn't the factory already go through that evolution?

-64 Short wheel base car
-(later not sure what year) added weight to the front bumpers of short wheel base
-(68?? lengthen wheel base)
-72/73add a second battery up front of the long wheelbase each positioned outboard behind the headlights in battery boxes
-74 big heavy impact bumper up front and move to a single battery positioned inboard.

[65rsr]

excessive understeer, excessive oversteer, lack of mechanical grip, running out of track, inadvertently occupying already occupied space, insufficient run-off, red mist in the brain.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Dave at Pelican Parts

I went four-off at one point; I found myself saying words that the chief instructor told us we would say: "I can save it!" When I realized that, I just straightened the wheel and took the car off in the generous run-off zone.
--DD

Originally Posted by JeremyD

You tend to over correct (and have limited traction in the grass) - if you get the car back on the track - you tend to catch a wheel and will shoot across the track - sometimes into traffic or worst case scenario, into the inside wall.

https://youtu.be/BOvt8OlfX4E?t=1m44s

[KTL]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

https://youtu.be/BOvt8OlfX4E?t=1m44s

Dude,

Are you trying to find stuff to worry about? Stuff happens. Drive smartly and within your abilities the best you can and that's all you can do.

Things beyond your control are going to happen and sometimes, often times, there's nothing you can do to avoid an incident. That's the risk you take venturing on to the track. If you're not willing to accept that, well then maybe don't track your car.

The F3 incident is pretty cut & dry IMO. The guy who went off, made a mistake or had some sort of car issue that caused him to go off. He "got lucky" in that his car didn't get stuck in the gravel trap. Most drivers try to keep moving so they don't get stuck and can continue on. Nothing wrong with that. He did a good job, be it intentional or not, to keep the car rolling and was also lucky the car didn't dig in and flip. Unfortunately his good fortune of keeping the car moving, AND it ending up back on the track, provided the opportunity for another car to hit him really hard

The other car that speared him made a very bad decision choosing to go thru the dust cloud (apparently at clear track speed?) instead of checking up and going wide where there's clear track and visibility. That's pretty obvious. Easy to say as an observer with 20/20 hindsight. Nonetheless when you see trouble ahead, it's wise to check up and seek clear track or clear runoff area (never come to a complete stop on track unless the ENTIRE track area is completely blocked) instead of driving thru the smoke like Cole Trickle. We all know how that turned out...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOldh4ePgnA

And after you roll your eyes at that "legendary" scene, grab a drink and partake in some laughs with this next clip. Even you the pessimistic one will enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMhmoyKdziU

[Charles Freeborn]

Originally Posted by KTL

Dude,

Are you trying to find stuff to worry about? Stuff happens. Drive smartly and within your abilities the best you can and that's all you can do.

Amen. Quit worrying about the other cars, the gopro, the weather, your tires, etc etc and go drive. Run at a pace where you can hold the line perfectly and consistently and then let the pace pick up naturally.
Like they say in learning to play jazz - the first 20 years are the hardest.

[sugarwood]

I wasn't worried; I was just having a conversation.
I already went to DE this past weekend.

[surflvr911sc]

Don't worry about those brake dust seals that you posted about on the tech forum either. Just replace them next time you replace the caliper seals.

Drive within your limits, keep learning, and have fun!

Edit: Maybe search and read a bit more in between track days too. You're not on new ground.

[KTL]

I know you're just having a conversation and i'm not trying to be an a-hole and personally attack you. But most of your threads you start are somewhat overly-concerned (my opinion, don't take it personally) with what you're asking about. Just an observation.

Agreed with Ryan on the caliper dust seals. Those dust boots turn to crunchy rubber dust themselves for pretty much everybody. They just aren't able to withstand the intense heat of track use for very long. It's an indication of just how hot the brakes get and why it's important to use high heat tolerant pads and get some cool air to the brakes. A pair of 993 scoops attached to the front A-arms goes a long way toward helping combat that heat and is very easy to do