Air cooled values seems to have changed

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Would this be a good place to mention that I’ve got a pocket listing on a 57 speedster rough driver project?

Any pictures??

[KNS]

Originally Posted by cmpski

Each car has to stand on it's own merits. Two cars of the same year, any year, could have values of thousands, maybe 10's of thousands more or less than the other car. It depends on what level of car your looking for. Perfect, driver, DIY project. To ask what a 85 Carrera is worth, just to pick something out of the air, is meaningless. What 85 Carrera? What Color, rust, no rust, stock, very personalized, suspension, drivetrain, electronic glitches, none, etc, etc, on and on. Having spent some time restoring Longhoods, I've become paranoid. Finding one that's as advertised is few and far between. 15 to 20 years ago these cars weren't worth much. And they were repaired as almost valueless cars just to pound around in. If shunted, who cares. Body work to repair the body work, and done properly is VERY expensive. The paint off restorations I'm doing end up in the 3 to 400,000 dollar mark not including the cars. Those numbers bum me out and it takes the fun out of it for me.
I've driven SC's and 84 to 89 Carrera's. I just can't get into them. They're like lead sleds. Yuck. I think my Porsche days are numbered.

Agreed - as they say - when the price goes up the fun goes down.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by usera

I read Pelican, Rennlist and BAT every day and it appears to me that there have been way more price reductions on for sale ads than I have ever seen before. This is primarily run of the mill cars but it seems like the market for pedestrian p-cars is cooling.

I think the value is there but sellers that need to sell have to provide motivation. We are in a recession. People with large money are never affected by recession but they will buy only the best. A driver is just that and not going for a premium.

That is where the market correction mostly stands. My 2 cents.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Zeke

I think the value is there but sellers that need to sell have to provide motivation. We are in a recession. People with large money are never affected by recession but they will buy only the best. A driver is just that and not going for a premium.

That is where the market correction mostly stands. My 2 cents.

Other than the part where we are not in a recession.

[cmpski]

At 71 and in the Longhood resto world, most of the people I see, either at my shop or at others I outsource to, the folks are late 50's to late 70's. Most are moderately to very well off. This is not a game for the middle class unless they are top DIY folks. Here's my take on the future of air cooled.
That market has maybe 5 to 10 years, then all but the super rare or perfectly restored are going to go in a steep decline. The merrily super nice drivers will be bought cheap as parts cars for the super wealthy to rebuild their collector car if shunted.
The rest can go back to the fields and barns to just rot away. There's just too many of them for most to be called rare. Even the S's.
The 20's and 30's generation that will succeed in business over the next 10 years are into the new stuff. A 2023 GT3 RS will look vintage to them in 2033. Maybe an incredibly slow 935 RSR might get bolted up on the warehouse wall with their top of the line Porsche EV RS's, RSR's, GT2 RS's lined up on the floor.
Enjoy these cars while you can, because most of our cars will be unloved in the future.

Yes, I'm going to Rennsport. It will for the most part be a grey hair convention. And the Singer copies will be there to play to the baby boomers last hurrah. The younger folks seem to like the off road look whether on a Porsche or Toyota 4 Runner here in Denver. Even Porsche and Singer are toying with the off road look.
All I can say is it was a great ride and still is for a little bit longer. We baby boomers will just have to face our mortality and realize it's not the 20th century anymore.
Oh, and for you 30's and 40's folks who think their going to scoop up some cool air cooled cars. Who the hell is going to work on'em. Most of the properly trained Bosch MFI guys that still have a FULL collection of proper MFI jigs and tools are in their late 60's, 70's, and 80's. How about a proper rebuild on a distributor. How many of the current Porsche trained guys and gals that will go independent down the road have ever worked on either. When was the last time you went into a dealership garage and saw a couple year old engine taken all the way down to the crank? Or did they just slam a crate engine in. Hmmmm.
When you buy those cars make sure you acquire a full set of factory work and parts manuals so the tech will at least have a chance to get the repair properly done. I'm talking to you SC and Carrera folks also.

[Bucketlist]

Wouldn't it be great to have a crystal ball and see the car world in 10 to 20+ years? I remember 10 years ago I had a hunch that old Porsche's were going to go crazy, and I was correct.....or lucky. 20 years ago we advertised in the local papers and bought and sold really nice cars for a few grand, now look at it. At 75 I might be here another 10 years and with medical miracles maybe another 20. I spend a lot of weekends with 2-300 of my closest friends at local car shows. In 20 years will the next generation send all of these pristine classic cars to their grave? I doubt it but I won't be around to see it if they do.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by cmpski

15 to 20 years ago these cars weren't worth much. And they were repaired as almost valueless cars just to pound around in. If shunted, who cares. Body work to repair the body work, and done properly is VERY expensive. The paint off restorations I'm doing end up in the 3 to 400,000 dollar mark not including the cars. .

Then why are you doing $400k restorations?
Just pound around in a shunted car, as you stated.

As for the future of 80s 911 cars, just look to the 60s muscle car timeline.
Everything rhymes.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by cmpski

How about a proper rebuild on a distributor.

Glenn Yee. He also does CIS WURS, oil pump remanufacture, is Bilstein trained and certified, and recently set up a new facility specifically for complete engine and gearbox rebuilding. He’s 62 iirc, and was a kid wrenching for Dennis Aase back in his 1970s imsa days. He’s not going anywhere any time soon.

[ramonesfreak]

It always calmed my nerves knowing I had a specialist shop in town that could do serious work if my car required it. My guy (the only guy) is now in his 70s. Seems totally uninterested in the old cars, and, with so few air cooled cars around here……his skills appear be getting rustier every year based on work he recently did for me.

At some point, like most places other than Southern California, there will be nobody left to work on these cars. I’ll continue to do what I can but have concluded that to own one of these cars (in most locations) you have to be a serious DIYer, with good heath, interest, time, knowledge, money, and tools or you have no issue ($$$) shipping your car to someone that can fix it, or you are totally ignorant.

So I agree with cmpski

There are not enough of these cars left here to support a service industry, and if I was in the market to buy one, I would be asking myself who in town can work on it? In my own part of the world, I’m not sure if the mechanics disappeared first or if the cars did. Doesn’t really matter. Around here there are almost none of either. Sorta feels like I’m sitting on a ticking time bomb. If only I loved my car less than I do, it would be replaced by a 917.

Thankfully I paid $12k for mine back in 06. To pay $50k or whatever prices they go for now? I would have to be very wealthy or basically an air-cooled Porsche mechanic knowing what I know now, or the cars would have to be $12k again

[NYNick]

Where I lived in Metro NY, I can think of at least half a dozen competent shops I can take an air cooled Porsche. At least 3 or 4 of them are headed up by mechanics in their late 30's or early 40's. All of them are pretty expensive. It's the same here in coastal CT.

It's a Porsche. Buying and owning one has never been cheap. Ever.

There comes a time when owning an asset, depreciating or otherwise, starts to make no sense. It might be time to re-evaluate your circumstances.

[ramonesfreak]

NY Metro - I can find anything there ....Used to live in NYC and there are very few things one can not find there due to the amount of money in the area and the amount of toys... etc..... most normal places in the country..no.

NYC is a terrible benchmark to use when assessing the state of things...same for the whole tri state area

I saw a recent Magnus interview where he said that he though LA has the largest number of 911s in the world.....He is probably right about that....NYC, coastal California, maybe a few other spots around the country are ok but the rest of us are in bad shape.

The last time I saw air cooled 911s....more than just me, or the occasional 356.....at car shows was at least 12 years ago. I never see them on the road here, maybe once per year Ill drive by one.

If I was in LA or NYC area, I wouldnt think twice about owning a classic Porsche or any classic car since there is a strong service market

[sugarwood]

Good point. When I visit rural areas, I even wonder how far the closest BMW dealer is for a basic X5 grocery getter. How far NY Upstate are you located?

[ramonesfreak]

Rochester so north west corner…..most people in NYC think upstate is Yonkers or White Plains….I guess technically it is but not to me.

I see people with new Ferraris and lambos around here and wonder about their servicing..no dealers here….I guess if you can afford a new one of those then shipping it off to the dealer for an oil change is no problem but I wouldn’t like that one bit

When I was in High School in the 80s my friend’s uncle had a indy Ferrari shop where you could see any old Ferrari being worked on. That shop closed in the early 90s and was the last one….I think being a real mechanic is a dying art and will only get worse.

[Cobalt]

I do my own work and it is becoming quite expensive. A top end rebuild using factory parts 5 years ago might have cost me wholesale pricing $2500 to do myself today closer to $5500 so double for parts and valve work alone. If I had to add labor double that or more.

Labor rates have gone crazy with Indy's charging between $165 and $225 an hour. The dealerships range from $265 to $350 an hr. It adds up quickly.

I am not so sure LA has NYC area beat for the number of 911's. Maybe more people take them out to the shows there but there are countless thousands of them in private collections and or sitting unused in a garage some place. I do agree $300-400k for a proper restoration seems extreme. I know of a very nice 912 prototype test mule that has been getting completely restored and should be at rennsport. Although pricey not close to those numbers.

There are many places to service lambos and Ferrari's in Norther NJ although I wouldn't own one and most owners here don't drive them they only go to shows and rev their cold engines incessantly.

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by ramonesfreak

NY Metro - I can find anything there ....Used to live in NYC and there are very few things one can not find there due to the amount of money in the area and the amount of toys... etc..... most normal places in the country..no.

NYC is a terrible benchmark to use when assessing the state of things...same for the whole tri state area

I saw a recent Magnus interview where he said that he though LA has the largest number of 911s in the world.....He is probably right about that....NYC, coastal California, maybe a few other spots around the country are ok but the rest of us are in bad shape.

The last time I saw air cooled 911s....more than just me, or the occasional 356.....at car shows was at least 12 years ago. I never see them on the road here, maybe once per year Ill drive by one.

If I was in LA or NYC area, I wouldnt think twice about owning a classic Porsche or any classic car since there is a strong service market

Bring it farther East. Japan has been depleted of classic 911s over time. My friend's shop B-Force in Kobe has no more costomers for these cars owners or maintenence. Just a clue there! OC CA especially Costa Mesa is US Porsche Central, alwalys has been, always will be. Miss being there, used to live there in college days. I will live and die (not in LA -- remember that movie?) in Japan. You couldn't drag me back to the US for a freakin car, even like my ol' 73 RS #101. Life is good and the memories are too. Leave it at that and live each day as may be your last. Don't worry, be happy! Cars are just tin bread boxes on wheels really. Make a quid off them if you can I always say.

[Cobalt]

We had a study done and found that up until 15 years ago Norther NJ/NYC had far more PCA members and air cooled 911's by a large margin than any palce in the US since they became a thing.

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

We had a study done and found that up until 15 years ago Norther NJ/NYC had far more PCA members and air cooled 911's by a large margin than any palce in the US since they became a thing.

15 years ago isn't that far back Cobalt, yet I stand corrected. I guess OC CA is no longer Porsche central. I've been away too long. 6 years since I've been home to the USA. Thanks for the heads up and the perspective!

[NYNick]

Originally Posted by ramonesfreak

NY Metro - I can find anything there ....Used to live in NYC and there are very few things one can not find there due to the amount of money in the area and the amount of toys... etc..... most normal places in the country..no.

NYC is a terrible benchmark to use when assessing the state of things...same for the whole tri state area

I saw a recent Magnus interview where he said that he though LA has the largest number of 911s in the world.....He is probably right about that....NYC, coastal California, maybe a few other spots around the country are ok but the rest of us are in bad shape.

The last time I saw air cooled 911s....more than just me, or the occasional 356.....at car shows was at least 12 years ago. I never see them on the road here, maybe once per year Ill drive by one.

If I was in LA or NYC area, I wouldnt think twice about owning a classic Porsche or any classic car since there is a strong service market

If your point is that geography and location should dictate classic air cooled ownership, I guess I can't argue. Rochester isn't exactly East Jabib however, but neither is New Haven or Hartford. Plenty of shops up this way as well.

Do you belong to your local PCA? Attend the socials? Seek out the clubs?

Porsche ownership has always been for the well to do, or for those who were willing to pay for the privilege of ownership. It's the most profitable car company is the world for good reason and it ain't getting any cheaper.

The last air cooled 911 was built 25 years ago. Of course they're hard to come by. Add to that fact the salty road season we have and it's no wonder we don't see a lot of them.

I went to breakfast with a bunch of P-car people last week in rural CT and there were no fewer than 5 356's. I'm going to an C&C Monday in mid-state CT in a town you've never heard of and I guarantee they'll be 6-10 P-cars.

I'm new to this area and it's taken some effort to track down the local P-groups, but they're here.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by 911heaven

15 years ago isn't that far back Cobalt, yet I stand corrected. I guess OC CA is no longer Porsche central. I've been away too long. 6 years since I've been home to the USA. Thanks for the heads up and the perspective!

The environment has changed tremendously and CA has the community these days.

It is amazing how many of these lived around me for the longest and I had no idea. The majority of RS's and S model air cooled cars lived just miles away and now have been sold after decades of sitting in collections never coming out to play.

Really quite sad but southern CA has become huge and they have the weather and the roads so they get far more exposure.

[ramonesfreak]

i’m not a member but my understanding is that there are only a small handful of air cooled members here. maybe next year i’ll join….i say this every year……

when i go to C&C i am usually the only vintage porsche there except maybe the occasional 944.

was at a car show sunday. saw no porsche.

it’s not about the money for me. it’s about trust. if i need serious engine out work, i want to be able to discuss the project with the tech, not ship it off to someplace far away which is also a practical/logistical nightmare

when i was at my tech a few weeks back i asked him if he could change the fuel lines….nope. sorry. don’t have a source for them. huh? this is a guy that does all the PCA driver ed inspections for the niagara region

i’m ok with the issues because my car was so inexpensive and i’ve had to put so little money into it that it seems like i got the car for free and at this point it’s all profit for me from what i’ve seen in the market

but why people pay $50k plus for them, likely not realizing the issues involved, blows my mind a little. my friends say can’t you just take it to the porsche dealer? haha. people have no idea. ide be far better off finding an old geezer that worked on beetles

i do see a ton of air-cooled cars when i’m at watkins glen though…good scene down there it seems

CT is close enough to the NYC action that i’m not surprised that you have options. i’m 6 hours from NYC these days.

Originally Posted by NYNick

If your point is that geography and location should dictate classic air cooled ownership, I guess I can't argue. Rochester isn't exactly East Jabib however, but neither is New Haven or Hartford. Plenty of shops up this way as well.

Do you belong to your local PCA? Attend the socials? Seek out the clubs?

Porsche ownership has always been for the well to do, or for those who were willing to pay for the privilege of ownership. It's the most profitable car company is the world for good reason and it ain't getting any cheaper.

The last air cooled 911 was built 25 years ago. Of course they're hard to come by. Add to that fact the salty road season we have and it's no wonder we don't see a lot of them.

I went to breakfast with a bunch of P-car people last week in rural CT and there were no fewer than 5 356's. I'm going to an C&C Monday in mid-state CT in a town you've never heard of and I guarantee they'll be 6-10 P-cars.

I'm new to this area and it's taken some effort to track down the local P-groups, but they're here.