1966 values

[DougM]

Any idea on value of a 1966.
Rust free, original 2.0 with Webers and original 901 trans. 16x 6&7 Fuchs. S front spoiler with small rear flares, maybe SC? Older repaint but nice. The car is a nice looking driver. Interior is original except for the seats and steering wheel.

[DougM]

[haycait911]

no expert but those don't look like SC flares, SC's are more bulgy above the lip.

[Macroni]

need more info:
is it solid, what kind of seats?

[DougM]

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=382682

The seats are in another question here.
They are Recaros from a BMW.

[Macroni]

Rust?

[DougM]

No rust or rot. Even the torsion holes are good. No bubbling paint.

[Fidalgo911S]

That's tough to say but a real disaster of a Production Year '65, Model Year '66 sold on Ebay for about 8 grand. What I can see from the engine pics are a couple of things not original that affect value (at least to me). That's a Solex engine with a Weber carbs installed aftermarket. If he has the Solex's in a box with all the parts - not an issue. The paint job extends to the recepticle for the decklid latch. That's pure laziness on the painter's part. What else is hiding under the paint? The rear defrost heater tubes have been replaced.

That being said, prices for these cars have been rising. I guess based on what else I've seen lately, $8K might be "retail" for that car. Making it original is gonna cost big $.

[304065]

Doug,

Please don't take this the wrong way. ALL SWB 911s have rust. ALL.

Those are LWB flares, and the horngrills are the SWB versions, painted black presumably, you can see the silver showing through where it's been scratched off. Of course that's a LWB "S" spoiler, probably in fiberglass, and they don't really fit right at the front wheelwell, but there's no pic there, also there's no "S" deco strip on the front.

Ditto the headlamp rings which are painted, they should be chrome, and those are H4s, not the '66 covered headlamps.

Wipers parked on the wrong side, and that looks like a very big gap at the fender-to-hood junction on the left, but a smaller one on the right.

Chrome has been blacked out seemingly everywhere, including decklid grille and rear window frames-- these get pitted with age so should be refinished anyway so you just want to make sure they are in fact chrome plated brass and not something off an SC.

The engine is a 901/01 which has been converted to webers, and it looks like it might have center-lubed cam housings missing the oil line? Fan strap was parkerized, not painted, and the fan should be natural aluminum, not black, but those are easy enough to fix.

Electrical console has aftermarket blue coil with black top, probably made in Brazil, and replacement Bosch voltage regulator, probably solid state (original was electromechanical) and I don't see the ballast resistor on the console either, but the relay for it is there (at six o'clock position). Wiring is a mismash of non-original spaghetti.

Good news is the sound pad looks original.

If you are buying this car to drive I would say have fun and enjoy, but most people who buy '66's buy them to restore to time-machine status. A correct restoration of a '66 is about a $50,000 project if you do everything correctly, and if you start with the car you want to end up with, it makes it easier than correcting areas where the car was modified in the past.

If I were offered that car for $8K I would pass, I believe it would clear the market at less than that for someone who wanted a driver or a good inexpensive base for a restoration project.

What are the VIN, engine and trans numbers? Might change the answer. (But not by much, given the indented latch panel visible in the engine pic)

[DougM]

I am not looking to make it show quality. I just like a clean, fun driver. I was looking for a RS or RSR street clone but then started looking at the GruppeB looking hot rod as well. This car seems to be quite close to that look. Maybe even enough without changes. However, I have never owned this vintage, and if I am disappointed in the "fun factor", I want to be able to sell it rather easily. Looking through EBAY and aged classifieds here, I really have no idea on this vintage market for non 100% original cars. The prices are all over.
I have talked to the cars mechanic and he says it is not original, but has always been clean and rust free. The brakes have been completely rebuilt and the engine was rebuilt about 15k ago and has no leaks at all.

[DougM]

Vin is 302963
engine is 903051

[304065]

Doug,

I see where you are coming from. Seriously now, a '66 911 had 130 HP and not very much torque, what there was was way up high, and the brakes were single-circuit and while very good, not the "hand of G_d" stopping power of the later cars with the vented discs. From a performance standpoint, the cars are fun, but they don't light your hair off the way a well-sorted LWB "S" or "RS" would.

Where the "fun factor" comes from is in the originality- all the quirky weird details that make the SWB cars the "missing link" between the 356 and the LWB MFI cars-- in between Porsche's four-cylinder cars that were outgunned on the Autobahn and the fuel-injected flared hotrod the car started becoming in the late sixties. Funky wooden dash more at home on a boat than a car-- houndstooth seats that look like funkified bellbottoms from the Me Decade-- the kind of strange stuff that made Porsche different, before it started with the "blacked-out" look that was the rage in Continental europe.

As I have said before here, guys who pay top dollar for an SWB car don't do it for wide tires and huge horsepower, they do it for originality. As such, the most liquid market is for the clean survivor that represents the simplest restoration candidate for a dedicated enthusiast willing to spend the time and the money it takes to bring the car back. If you bought this and then weren't happy with the sort-of-wheezy peformance of the early cars (at least compared to the later ones) I believe you would have a hard time flipping out of it unless you REALLY bought it right.

Anyway, that's probably more than two cents worth of advice, but my recommendation would be to pass on this one and hold out for a clean LWB car, or even consider an SC backdate, these are becoming increasingly popular and easier to do, and would certainly be a lower-cost way to get serious performance in a longhood car at a much lower cost than scrounging for original parts.

If you do go in that direction, get a PPI, get a PPI, get a PPI. Call Tony Proasi in Louisville, he is a good man who knows the early cars and who posts here.

[304065]

Wow, 302963 is just a few numbers away from Nate's old red car, which had engine number 903154. The engine number you post, engine, 903051, IS a center-lubed engine, as the first spraybar-lubed engine was 903070. It might not be original to the car, a gap of 80 engines is a pretty big jump backwards.

[DougM]

Thanks for the info. I just sold my modified 930 and figured I may pursue something that is an entirely different type of fun. Looking for some clones, I stumbled upon this car so I decided to look into it more. It appears that rusty rollers, both 911 and 912 are even starting to bring money so I have no idea of the value of a 75k mile clean but not 100% original car would be.

[Jay H]

My brother recently bought a '65/'66 (year depends on what book you read for the cutoff...). He paid $10,500 for a car with 110k on the clock (verified by records) that needs a full cosmetic restoration, including body work, minor rust repair (door, fender and front trunk pan), suspension and brake refresh and other misc mechanical repairs. She's been run hard, hit hard and bastardized over the years, but she goes down the road like a champ and spent her life in rust free California. The only good spot on the car is the motor rebuild done 10,000 miles ago and the trans that was replaced 20k miles ago. It was the cheapest one we could find in short order and the one with the least amount of rust. Snap one up now if you need to have a first year car. They are not getting cheaper and people know what they have.

This particular car that my brother has will never be show quality since she's just too tore up, but once he's done dropping $30k into this thing, it'll be a nice driver. Read the comment again above about SWB cars that don't have rust. There isn't such things. 99% of these things have rust. Dig deep enough and you'll find it lurking...

I agree 100% with John's posts above regarding what the appeal is. My brother did not buy this car for it's performance. The skinny tires, average brakes and peaky motor are lame compared to my 3.2 Carrera and down right laughable when you get to my 964. It's not even close. My brother also owns a '70 T (with an E motor) and two '83 Euro SC's. All three of those cars will also leave the '65/'66 way behind.

I've had hours and hours of seat time in all 4 of my brother's 911's and of course know my cars well too.

If I had to pick one to drive as a fun car? Guess. Hands down it's the '65/'66. The '70 T is a tractor and is loads of fun. The 964 is very quick and modern, but boring to drive. My 3.2 Carrera is a great everyday car that I run whenever it's not raining, but there is something very special about the '65/'66. Power delivery with a good set of Webers is a hoot and these cars are so darn light and responsive and sound incredible at all revs. Odd ball things like the ventilation (or lack there of), bus sized wood steering wheel and wood dash are just plain cool. Stock 4.5" rims with skinny tires are not performance oriented (no wonder everyone spun these cars when they were new!). I'd dare not take this early car into modern rush hour traffic (but it could be done). However, there isn't much like a first year car on a sunny Sunday on some backroads. These things are a hoot to drive and you'd better concentrate while driving them. Hang the F on when you're hammerin' on the thing. She's a handfull and still quite quick for what it is. I've laughed out loud while driving this car from the fun while pounding her down a backroad. Definitely a driver's car. It'll make an SC seem like a luxury car...

If you are looking to drive a 911 on a regular basis, look for something newer. If you want the feel of a 911 as it was originally designed back in the early '60's, the SWB cars are the answer. If you had $2,000,000 to spend on a new car, there is absolutely nothing to buy that will replicate the drive you'll get in a SWB that is dialed in.

Here's the '65 after delivery and a couple hours of cleanup:



Hope this helps,

Jay
The Cars

[DougM]

Thank you Jay. That is the kind of feedback regarding "fun" that I was looking for. Now it's simply a matter of not paying too much to try something different myself.

[Jay H]

Doug,

Be careful on these early cars. As John says above, the cars that have quick and high resale values are the relatively original ones. Those are very few and far between. This car in question is some what cut up too and might be a hard to flip car unless you get the right buyer and the chassis is relatively rust free. Most of these things are old dogs that need $20,000 worth of proper restoration. I could spend $20k in a hurry on this car just from the few pics we've seen above and on your seats post.

Parts can be expensive. For example, wood steering wheels are $900 restored. Some parts are just plain not available anymore unless you scour the swap meets or can rebuild the part. You need to have deep pockets and lots of time to run these old things if you want to keep them somewhat original and somewhat reliable.

It's been said that all 911's are $20,000 cars. Well, all SWB cars are $40,000 cars. Pay now or pay later...

You also need to be able to pull the trigger on a nice car quickly. If a very nice early car (especially a documented '65 or even '64) comes up, you gotta be able to move quick. People know these things are climbing in value and the good stuff goes quick without PPI's, "let me think about it" timing, etc. However, dump some coin on a very, very nice car and it's getting to the point that you can't drive 'em much since they are appreciating...

I'd suggest looking for the $20k driver type car that while not fully original nor show quality, is running good and may not need all that much to enjoy as a runner. The '67 and '68 non "S" models seem to have the least value right now and would be darn close, if not identical, to the first year cars in feel. The SWB cars seemed to have been exempt from the crazy values of the long hood, post '68 cars. But, that seems to be changing and these darn horrid first year SWB's are climbing quickly in value.

Good luck!

Jay

[Fidalgo911S]

Cruel motivation

[blau911]

more cruel motivation...
Nothing like the simple raw feel of driving in an early SWB car that is very dialed in (with a high hp motor, Momo wheel and sportseats).
Ask anyone who has one...

[GothingNC]

69 912 sold for $34,500

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120195739705&ssPa geName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=002