1973.5 911T Targa - "original" owner

[gshiwota]

Hey folks-

I know this is tough but what do you think this car is worth given the following info?

I have the opportunity to purchase a 73.5 911T Targa from a family friend. This car is practically a one-owner car - our family friend purchased this car in 1975 from the original owner with under 10K miles at that time. The car has full history, low mileage but the car is very worn (quite a bit of patina).

The car has approximately 100K miles but has lived its life as a daily driver. The cosmetics and mechanics of the car are tired - I'd rate 5/10. I know the car was driven easily - apparently it's still on its original clutch according to the owner. However, I have driven the car and it will need trans work (new syncros), engine work (needs updates and fix oil seepage), and full cosmetics. The car was repainted back in the 80s in its original color - however the car has been living in a carport about 1/2 block from the ocean for the past 30 years so the paint and trim are quite weathered and will need complete refinishing (even the gauges are slightly weathered).

The good:
- Car is 100% complete and original (except for paint)
- Car drives well and engine pulls strong
- Full records since new - I think he even has the original window sticker
- no accidents
- "one owner" car
- California car and appears to have minimal rust
- Silver / Black

The bad:
- Repainted back in 80s - not a great respray
- The car needs full restoration including mechanics and cosmetics
- Needs paint
- Needs full interior (dash is cracked, seats are saggy, carpets are worn through in some areas, all rubber is shot)
- Needs mechanics (brakes, suspension, engine, trans syncros, engine updates / leaks fixed, etc..)
- no special options (leatherette interior, no AC, no fogs, no s-trim, etc..) this is a "run-of-the-mill" 911T

My plan is to perform a bare-metal repaint, restore suspension, brakes, trans, engine and interior. I probably won't go 100% stock since I like the S-T hot rod look and would like to update the engine to 3.0 (SC) or 3.2 (motronic) unit.

I know this car is special given its history and I plan in giving it a proper restoration - I'm not going full concours but definitely won't cut corners with an Earl Schieb paint job, and motormeister rebuild. I am very serious about purchasing it this car however I see throwing at least $20K into the restoration assuming I do a lot of work myself. What do you think?

So how much would you pay assuming that nothing else major is found during PPI?

Thanks.



Gabe

'61 356B Karmann Notchback
'82 911SC Targa

[kilodawg]

Hi Gabe,

I'm no expert on all this (there are others on this site that fit the bill) but I don't really think you have provided all the info needed to give you the best answer you can get.

It might be helpful to take some pictures and post them so we could zero in on specific areas for discussion.

It sounds like the car will need a lot of work to do the job correctly. I will focus in on just one area that jumped out at me. Aside from the real impact of the rust that I'm sure others will chime in on.

You seem to say something that to me is hard to reconcile and that is "proper restoration" and "hot-rod look...3.2 motronic" etc.

While you can go the hot rod look and change motors and do a quality job at it, I wouldn't call that a proper restoration for an otherwise pretty original 73.5 T.

My personal opinion is that if you chance upon a car like this and are willing to take it on as a project restore it to it's original condition and configuration. There aren't many like this left and in the long run it's value will be higher if you do so.

If you want a hot rod go for a less well documented car that doesn't have the pedigree this one does. Again just my opinion, and if you get it do what you want it would be your car...

As far as value goes it's a tough call. I'd say anywhere from $6000 to $12,000 but that could surely be off.....

[onlycafe]

go no further without a thorough ppi.
minimal rust for a car that has spent the last thirty years parked outside 1/2 block from the ocean could be catastrophic amounts, or not.
have it looked at by a professional.
that said, best of luck.

[gshiwota]

Thanks for the feedback. I know that going non-stock has its downsides - especially on a well documented car. However, since the car really needs everything replaced / restored / etc... other than having a nice stack of paperwork, does the documentation really matter if I restore to stock or do some mild modifications at that point? I know, the purists will shoot me for this opinion.

I listened to the purists when I restored my 356 back to stock. Unfortunately I have regretted it. It's a great car to look at but I really don't enjoy driving it. I look at 356 Outlaw and rGrouppe guys and know those guys are having more fun with their cars than I am.

As for price, I'm thinking $8K-$10K assuming no major rusted out areas. I checked the door jams, doors, headlights, windshield posts, etc... and they look solid with no surface rust. Note- I haven't looked underneath the car yet.

Anyone else have ideas on a price range for a solid restoration candidate 73 CIS 911T Targa?



Thanks!

Gabe

[onlycafe]

it's up to you to go stock or hot rod. i think the purists would not begrudge you going hot rod as long as you don't change anything to a point where it could not go back to stock.
but screw them anyway, it isn't their car, it's yours. if it were me.......hot rod please.

[racer]

To me paperwork only matters if the car is original and pristine. Having an "original" car that needs a complete restoration? To me the paperwork is nice to have, but a full restoration brings about its own papertrail.

Don't get caught up in the "investment" hype of an early car if its costs you $10K for the "car" and another 20K for the restore (and that number may not be accurate either). "T"s are the bottom of the early car interest (well, maybe 912s' ) The 73.5T targa is a bit more rare but right now the $$ is chasing S and E Coupes first.

If you are now going to "keep it forever" then don't get caught up on a number. Consider similar cars and what they are going for.. and how much work they need, to become the car you want this one to be. It could be after a 3.2, ST flares etc are added you might say.. "Boy, this Targa sure flexes alot. Wish I had a coupe !"

Sharing a pic or two would help the peanut gallery help you realize a market range price for the car as it is.

[POORSH]

"I listened to the purists when I restored my 356 back to stock. Unfortunately I have regretted it. It's a great car to look at but I really don't enjoy driving it. I look at 356 Outlaw and rGrouppe guys and know those guys are having more fun with their cars than I am."

I think this is so true. I recently bought a 72 with a 3.0 that basically has all the right upgrades with the exception of the cosmetics (presentable paint, not exceptional). But this is what I wanted. Original body with better power. I have more fun driving this car than any of the other cars I've owned. I can go anywhere and not have to worry too much about it. I once had a Boxster that I couldn't drive anywhere without getting stressed out about it. Took all the fun out of it.

I also a have 73.5 T Targa that I got from the original owner. While the car runs awesome, I don't think I would go the hot rod with this car because of its originalitiy. I would probably restore it one day, but that won't be for many years in the future as it is a pretty darn good driver right now. Also, I think I would enjoy the body mods on a coupe more. With that being said, if I were you, I would restore this to stock and pick up a cheap roller for the ST mod. Just my $0.2.

[avendlerdp]

From your description it does not need a full engine rebuild just a reseal and perhaps some other minor work. That's a lot less money than a full re-do. If it is was my opportunity, I would buy it for as little as possible, rebuild the trans, reseal the engine, and re-do the seats, then drive it. That car is worth enjoying as a neat "beater" but not as a resto candidate. 100k miles is not that many so it's got a few left in it without a total teardown.

When the motor takes a dump, sell the 7r cased 2.4 for a core, buy a used 3.0 and toss it in there. Good times. Low$$ Keeping that car numbers matching is not worth it in my opinion. We all know they made a lot of T's and they don't seem to be worth more #'s matching unless they are some 100 point resto and even then it's still all about the S's and E's...

[gshiwota]

Thanks for the all of the great advice.

Ok.. I'm getting more serious with the owner now. He wants $10K for the car. I know it's tough to tell me what it's worth without pics or more details, but I wanted to see if anyone out there can speculate if $10K is in the ballpark.

Maybe a better question for the group is what kind of longhood 911T Targa could you buy for $10K? My gut feeling is that it's probably worth $8K but then again, it is a low mileage, full history car with no structural rust (albeit it does need lots of work).


Thanks,

Gabe

[Macroni]

In the ballpark as you have described.

[Rot 911]

I think you will be lucky to be able to do a full restore for $20K unless you can do the painting yourself. Then throw in the $10K for the purchase price and you are now at $30K. I think there are some very nice "T's" out there for less than that.

[Sunroof]

As an owner of a 1973.5T sunroof coupe, I can tell you that the 8K to 10K price is pretty reasonable providing that no rust is present. I agree on an earlier post about salt-spray exposure. These are notorious for rusting and a VERY THOROUGH PPI is necessary. If and when you do have the PPI advise the shop or whomever is doing the inspection of the salt spray exposure. I was impressed with the mechanic who performed the PPI on my car, which has and continues to be a southern car. He used various sized picks and starting jabbin away at the undercarriage, suspension area (torque tube area), trunk, internal fenders, etc.

My 2.4 was rebuilt at 90K as too the 915 tranny. The prior owner spent over 34K which included a bare-metal repaint, new interior, glass, engine and tranny rebuild and a long list of other stuff. Eight years ago I bought this jewel for 9.5K!!!!!!!!!!! Crazy, but that was the going price. Today a restored 73.5T can go upwards to 30-35K.

My suggestion if you decide to buy it is to keep it as original as possible thereby retaining its value to a collector. If you do not rebuild the engine then at a minimum add the oil-fed tensioners and a pop-off valve. The "T" is a lively and dependable car to drive. I get tempted to just make it my daily driver, but I try to keep it pristine and the miles down.

Good luck

Bob
1973.5T

[evilfij]

Buy it and drive it as is.

[gshiwota]

Update: I'm thinking the car needs $8K if mechanical work right off of the bat. Is it unreasonable to assume this is a $5K-$8K car now?

I received copies of the maintenance history on this car and they went all the way back to the original purchase paperwork in 1973. The car has 91K miles (documented and verified) but I am concerned about the mechanical restoration required on the car. By my rough estimates, it'll take about $8K-$10K in work to bring this car back to reliable road-ready condition (basically an engine, trans and brake overhaul). Of course if I did the work myself, I could drop this number in 1/2 (however I'd most likely outsource the major mechanical work).

Based upon the records, the only major service was back in 1981 when the car received new 930 chain tensioners. The car is still running on it's original clutch!!!

As of now, the car is not running due to fuel leaks and the batteries are dead. The car has only been driven about 1000 miles in the last 8 years. Basically it's been sitting since the early 90s.

Summary of work needed:
Trans - needs new 1st and 2nd syncros
Trans - replace shifter bushings

Brakes - replace all lines and rebuild calipers (last brake job was in the early 80s).

Engine - The following is stuff I know it needs. It may have pulled studs or other major issues found once the engine is out. The engine had good compression when it was checked at 65K miles but that was back in the late 70s. It appears that the owner changed the oil every 10K miles (regardless of how much time passed) and fixed stuff as needed (cheap on maintenance) so I assume that the engine needs to be gone through completely. I'm not sure how tough these 2.4 motors are and if 91K is near the end of their practical lifespan.

Engine - Fix oil leaks (it probably needs new oil lines since the majority of lines are original)
Engine - replace clutch etc
Engine - All tune up parts including plug wires
Engine - Tensioners replaced at 80K miles in 1981 - it's probably a good idea to check / replace these while the engine is out
Engine - Needs pop-off valve (this car is on it's 4th airbox which was last replaced in the early 80s)
Engine - RR all fuel lines (I'm sure anything rubber needs to be replaced)
Engine - I'm sure we'll find more "while you're in there" issues once the engine is out
Engine - needs new heat exchangers - the last mechanic noted that the heat exchangers are severely rusted and needed replacement in 1990


Thoughts... what would you pay for this car? Don't forget, it still needs cosmetics.


Thanks,

Gabe

[LakeCleElum]

I have a 73.5 Targa with 121,000 miles....I has led a pampered life, is a great driver and a lot of FUN.

BUT, although it runs well and doesn't use much oil, it is starting to have an oil pressure issue that thinks a full rebuild is less than 10,000 away....This will very costly, with the mag case issue.
SO, do the PPI and make sure to check the oil pressure when the engine is quite warm. Don't be alarmed if it shows zero at idle, many do this....G'luck