72E with 3.0

[geshaghi]

I'm looking at a 72E that has had the original motor replaced by a 3.0 about 10 years ago by the current owner when the original 2.4E motor gave out. Car has a sunroof, has been flared in the rear slightly (all steel) and has Recaro aftermarket seats. It's not a bitsa, as the flare has been tastefully done and other than the seats appears completely stock. Color is ivory, overall condition appears generally good. I'm thinking add a ducktail and a well-placed stripe and you have a sort or RS clone, but I would value any input on how the current mods and non-original motor affect the value of this car. Thanks

[blau911]

If the flares have really been done done well, the paint and interior are good (seats are obviously a discount), and the drivetrain is tight and strong, I would put the value at between $17-20k. The car would be worth a lot more without the flares and motor, but 3 miter motors make for great fun in an early car.

[ossiblue]

I tend to agree with blau911, again, depending on the quality of the mods and overall condition. If the car was a T instead of an E, I would still place the value within the same range. Without spending a lot of money, the future of this car, at best, is as a top quality driver--not a collectable or a show car. If that's what you're looking for, and many buyers are, then this could be a good buy at the $17-20K range.

BTW, this 72T, with a 3.0 has not sold for at least a year. Originally priced near the mid 20's when prices were high, it now sits with little activity. It is similiar to what you describe, so this is only a reference point.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=660418

[geshaghi]

Thanks Blau & L.J. for the feedback. Has anyone seen the 72T listed at thesamba.com? That car has been around for so long, I'm assuming there must be something wrong with it. It belongs to a dealer who has several others listed, including a 72S. I went to see the cars just this past week actually, and the 72T was not there (he said it was kept down in San Diego?), but saw the S, which I think he's asking $58k for. It seems to be a decent car, although I didn't drive it as it is out of my price range, but its tired and needs at the very least a complete cosmetic redo.

[Macroni]

Personally, I would stay away from the decribed car unless the fit and finish, mechanically and cosmetically, made it truly a special car. Here is an example of what I would look for venturing outside of a stock treatment. This type of car IMO will hold value. It was built by Marco from TLG.

[ossiblue]

The 72T with the 3.0 was, in fact, first listed for nearly a year in San Diego witha dealer that also had some other 911's. Someone on this board lives close to the dealer (I think it's in Escondido) as they had posted about going by to check out an S that was advertised. Again, this was about one year ago. The fact that the current dealer says the car is in San Diego makes me think he has consigned it, either offically or "unoffically." Some on this board or the Early S board have personally seen the 72S and don't hold it in much regard for the price given, and don't hold the current dealer very high either, from what I gathered.

BTW, all the pictures of the 72T are from the original San Diego site.

[car-reras]

I have watched the 72E you refer to languish on Craigslist bay area for some time at $19K, right?
I think the Carrera replica / tribute thing is more or less played out.
Premiums are definitely on the original examples.
I think the length of time that car has gone unsold, and the fact that it is not a flipper/dealer/broker whatever, selling it, might mean you could get it at pretty nice percentage discount though. LOL.

[Macroni]

This is the car being discussed for $19,900. It does look nice on the grass.

[onboost]

geshaghi..

I guess my question would be what are your intentions for the car.. ?
The car sounds like it could be nice.. and would be fun to enjoy as the early chassis when properly set-up responds very well to the 3.0

Although from reading these threads of late, It seems like many these days purley base their motivation for purchase on correctness of the vehicle rather than it's overall condition and/or it's intended use.

By that I mean it's nice to have a perfect condition numbers matching early T, E, or S.. sitting in the garage. But is your intention for it to sit, to stare at, or to tell other s "look what I got?"

blau911; states that the seats are a discount.
- Personally if I'm using the car often I'd rather have the Recaros than the stock "fat-back" seats. Nice if the stock seats came with the package however.

ossiblue; Says not a collectable or show car..
- Maybe not collectable.. but based on the condition of course could be show worthy. Not all Porsche and other shows judge on correctness of the vehicle..

Again, just my opinion.. but I prefer tastefully modded cars and can't say that I presently own anything stock. I've been there and done that, actually before it became popular. I guess some 35+ 911s ago.

My last remaining early 911 is an S. When I bought it, it did not have the correct engine and never will. It had fact s/r, p/w, steel S, spoiler and thru the grill fogs. It had also been modified with SC flares and aftermarket Recaros covered to match the red interior.
I bought the car becuase it wasn't original and I could HAVE FUN with it. Overall the car was and is very solid. She's had a glass out repaint in it's orignal silver and is awaiting assembly.

My point being again.. that a perfect and correct car is not for everyone. One of the things I love most about Porsche is the way they adapt to the mod. It very cool to go to an event an see many variations on the theme... to include the well restored, 100pt concours correct early 911.

[car-reras]

Originally Posted by Macroni

This is the car being discussed for $19,900. It does look nice on the grass.

Actually, I think this is the vehicle being discussed...

[ossiblue]

Actually...you're both right!

The post by Macroni is of the 72T in So.Cal. (listed @19.9K), and the post by Car-ras is of the 72E which was the car that started the thread (listed at 19K.)

[Macroni]

The 72E looks good. I'm not crazy about the 72T.

[geshaghi]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

Actually...you're both right!

Yes, these are the two cars we've been discussing, although the one I'm most interested in is the 72E. All the feedback and comments are greatly appreciated.

In terms of what I'm looking for, my ideal car is a nice driver quality numbers matching 72E coupe, in a period color. I'd like the car to drive, admire and enjoy, and hopefully not lose my shirt if/when it comes time to sell. The 72E that's pictured above is one that I'm considering, even though it doesn't meet all of my requirements. It looks like a fun car that can be driven and enjoyed, but I worry about the exit - what's the price haircut for the non-original motor and the mods when it comes time to sell? I saw this car advertised only a few weeks ago, so I wasn't aware that it's been on the market since the summer. Has anyone seen the car in person or tried to negotiate with the seller?

[Dan Morton]

Another vote for the '72 over the other car. If the '72 were all original, it would be priced closer to $30k although with the economy today it would go for less I believe.

As these cars get older, the price differential for the original cars should really depart from the non original. I would think that you would not have much downside with the price over time. IMO, that price should hold while the originals increase. If you're patient, you should wait for the original car and buy it in a down economy shooting for $25k or so.

[ossiblue]

I completely agree with onboost--get clear on your intentions.

If you want your ideal, keep looking or you'll always have that nagging feeling that you settled for something less than you wanted.

If you decide to go the less than ideal route, I say don't be concerned about the "price hair cut. Instead, get clear what mods you can live with, the quality in which they were made, the boost they give to the fun and drivability of the car, and the overall satisfaction the car gives to you. Once you get over that the car is not original, will never be original, and you aren't going to spend a fortune to return it to originality, you will have chased a large monkey off of your back.

Frankly, I preferred the stock, original cars but have come to appreciate the personalizing of cars to specific driving fun. Not having seen either car discussed, in person, if they are what they claim (a big if) I'd like the E--3.0 power, sunroof, conservative flairs, essentially stock. I wouldn't try to quasi-clone it either. Just drive it, improve it, maintain it, and enjoy it.

[geshaghi]

There seem to be a lot of hot-rodded 72's on the market these days. Here's another one that I've seen listed on and off for several months. This one seems mechanically overdone to me, and sits a bit too low in the rear for my taste, especially with the 16" wheels (not to mention an over-the-top price for a T).

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/cto/1010277142.html

[gsjohnson]

Good advise being given here. Don't settle for something less than what you want because of impatience. I looked for a long time as well. It's a buyers market and the prices are not going up anytime soon.

In fact I checked out the black T in question during my search. I couldn't run fast enough within the first 5 minutes of looking at that car.

I wanted a Hot Rod, but would consider the right matching numbers car if it fell into my lap. I wanted to drive my car. I wasn't going to settle for a second rate car no matter how impatient I got. I was prepared to pay a little more for the right car, than settle for a sub par car because it was selling on the cheap. You usually end up with a project you didn't plan on.

Just .02

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by geshaghi

There seem to be a lot of hot-rodded 72's on the market these days. Here's another one that I've seen listed on and off for several months. This one seems mechanically overdone to me, and sits a bit too low in the rear for my taste, especially with the 16" wheels (not to mention an over-the-top price for a T).

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/cto/1010277142.html

While the price of this 72T might seem over the top; it is an expensive car to assemble correctly. Ask me how I know. It does seem to be sitting too low in the rear.

Hot Rods are odd ducks when it comes time to sell. As they are custom they need to strike a deep cord of passion w/ the buyer. I have seen many sell for over $50,000 in the last year, including this tangerine 73 T that sold for $70,000 within the last 5 weeks.



http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23957

I agree with the "get what you want" otherwise you will spend time and money twinking a car that doesn't meet your base requirements of a numbers matching 72E.

[geshaghi]

Originally Posted by Macroni

I have seen many sell for over $50,000 in the last year, including this tangerine 73 T that sold for $70,000 within the last 5 weeks.



http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23957

The tangerine 73 was clearly a very high quality car, but this alone can't explain the $50k+ price difference. Is it the 2.7 spec engine? Perhaps more specifically, how does one take the mildly hotrodded $19,000 73E and turn it into a $70k+ car that everyone salivates over, beyond just the cosmetics?

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by geshaghi

The tangerine 73 was clearly a very high quality car, but this alone can't explain the $50k+ price difference. Is it the 2.7 spec engine? Perhaps more specifically, how does one take the mildly hotrodded $19,000 73E and turn it into a $70k+ car that everyone salivates over, beyond just the cosmetics?

It is the attention to the small details that bring the money. A well done motor is quite expensive. I have more tied up into my 73 3.2T than I can get out and in my eyes it still is not complete.