And I found this in the glove box. I was hoping it said 2.7 but alas...It is in french. It is completely blank in the back, no service records or other id at all. :( The title I have lists the car as "911 Carrera RS" So somewhere along the line an owner must have known or the documents that came with the car listed it as such. I didn't get any paperwork other than what was in the glove box.

The name on the plaque from previous posts is "B. Wettlin"

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288136258.jpg

g911 ,

That's curious, that you have a french language print owners manual. Who knows if that is the original or a replacement. I do know that these cars were delivered with the standard 1976 Carrera 3.0 owners manual however. I would guess it's a replacement.

If you had not heard of it already , or looked it up. Raffay is a Porsche dealer who was around back then, so apparently your car was there at some point for one reason or another (maybe a resale / trade-in ?) :

raffay.de / they currently have two locations (both in Hamburg).

I have them noted as being delivered two 1974 RS 3.0's for instance . 911 460 9019 & 460 9023 .

Gwhite had records of your car being originally delivered to Hahn ('Hahn Sportwagen' at that time) however as I remember. Which was the dealer closest to the factory. Their dealer number was 115/001/1 . And they had two locations , the main store in main Stuttgart & one in nearby Fellbach . And they also had another dealership called 'Hahn & Spahr' , also in or near the Stuttgart area , with another 115 subset number (115/058/2).

Hahn Sportwagon sold , and had delivered to them , MANY various 911 sport/competition model 911 cars (and others such as 914/6 GT's , and many other types of sport/competition models , in both earlier & later years).

Is that how the dealer was listed GWhite - the dealer by name or number ? (g911's 9120).

I'm curious GWhite , does your 1976 C3 Sport have the all polyurethane tail or the fiberglass with poly lip variety ? (I believe I remember being told they actually came both ways - if so , was there a ryhme or reason as to which tail would be delivered on a C3 Sport and why all-poly vs. fiberglass w/polylip ? Or the reverse ? ).


One other note Gwhite, the reason I stated that the M473 issue is bizzarre on these cars is that normally on a model build . If something is standard , then when deleted. There is a build record of it, like on 1973 RS 2.7's. When a ducktail (part of the standard build) was deleted on a built to preorder 1973 RS 2.7. There is a build record of it. So you would believe it would be the same procedure if the standard build of these 123 coupes was to be with M473 included.

Lastly for this post. Years ago , I found this reference to these cars in Paul Frère's book "Porsche 911 Story" (on page 55) :

"The 2.7 litre Carrera engine, Type 911/83 , remained in production for three years , practically without change , until the end of the 1975 model run, and even into 1976 for the Australian and South African markets."

I have no idea how accurate this is (but it was Paul Frère , who had some pretty tight connections for info. in writing this book). Strange however , that DE and CH markets are not mentioned ?

And I do know of one 1976 911/83 car that has been (or was) in South Africa for many years. A gold metallic car without M473 (I have the number somewhere).

I am still in awe of how much information you all have.

The car I am referencing is the same one from last years thread. This restoration will not set any records for speed, but details like the optional equipment are critical for accuracy.

I have the name of the individual who imported the vehicle into the US, but have only made limited efforts to locate them. I do know that the name is the same as a Porsche finance executive from the same period. This is a line that I will continue to pursue and will post if anything is found.

I would like to know how to obtain the factory records indicating what the options were that the vehicle was originally delivered with.

As I noted, it has the 911/83 motor, 915 trans and LSD. The options delete list reads much the same as the others mentioned with limited sound deadening material, no A/C, no rear wiper and no passenger side mirror. The added option appear to be chrome trim, fog lamps and the much disputed front and rear spoilers.

Any help in confirming these options from the factory letter, or otherwise is greatly appreciated.

'g911'

716 9743 is the transmission serial number. The '76 2.7 Carrera was fitted with a 915/43 gearbox with serial numbers 716 9501 onwards. I thought however that the numbers before the serial number should be 915/43 so don't know what the '12' is

'RatBox'

The info I had from Porsche for g911's car is:

type 911331=911 Coupe
engine 6668XXX
gearbox 169XXX
dealer 115=Hahn,Fellbach
color Z6=copper brown metallic
interior 15=leatherette black,seatinlays Tweed
options 440=antenna left,speakers in doors,suppression, 469=roofliner black, 481=5-speed gearbox, 494=2 spaeakers rear, 496=chromeparts black,headlamprings painted, 568=colored windows


The spoiler fitted to my Carrera 3 is the all polyurethane version which was fitted to the UK 1977 model year sport version, '76 MY had the fibreglass with rubber surround version. Interestingly the 1977 version had an additional bracket in the engine compartment so that the spoiler was supported by a gas strut on both the left and right hinge. I don't know if this was also the case for the 1976 version but this may be a way to determine if the spoilers fitted were original (g911 and sduser could you check?) The photo below shows 911 660 9041 which was restored by Freisinger and fitted with a non-original spoiler and it can be seen that one of these brackets has been added.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288170601.jpg

'sduser'

The info I have from Porsche for #50 is:

engine 666XXXX
gearbox 169XXX
dealer 114=Glöckler,Frankfurt
color Z2=silvermetallic
interior 12=leatherette black,seatinlays Tartandress red
options 440=antenna left,suppression,speakers in doors, 481=5-speed gearbox

The chrome trim is correct as those with black trim have this mentioned as an option. There is no mention of fog lights, both my Carrera 2.7 and 3.0 have foglight switches in the dash but no record of them on the COA and I think they were added later.

The Silver with Tartan interior sounds great, do you have any photos you could post?

Guy

g911,

Can you post a photo of the underside of your tail ?



Thx

Here's something from my specific area of expertise. :D
The 12 is the indication that it was fitted with a ZF LSD from the factory.

The Type number would have been even farther to the left in front of the 12.

This is probably the Carrera with VIN - 9116609107, engine - 6668124, paint tag - 944/9/3.

Mt records from '04 show:1976, bought by Klaus Hehner from Auto-Rossel GmbH. 500-1000km, 20k and 40k services by Auto-Rossel. 1986, sold to Tony Olivier in Pretoria. 60k service by Peco Porsche. 1996, sold to Charles (?). 80k service by M&R Porsche. In '04 it had 97Km.

Thx fryardds ,

I hadn't gone and looked at my notes , I was going off memory on the South African gold car. I have a copy of a write up with some photo's I printed off the web a good while ago. I'll see if I can find it. And post the photo's.

Sunroof car with no M473


i've got same info except :

Charles Lundal Jr. / co. "Amazing Grace" - Pretoria S.A. (amazing grace is/was some kind of paint sales co., if iI remember correctly.
_______________________________________________

Thx Matt M. ,

That's good and useful info. , is that a pretty consistent thing ? (any time period specific ?)

I ask , as I have two photos of trans cases that are supposed to be factory built boxes originally from some kind of 911 race versions (which you would assume had to be locked / LS) and I cant see a 12 on either. Maybe factory built race tranaxles are differant , only production gearboxes with LS got stamped 12 ??

From the ID codes you can tell one is from a 72 car , and the other from a 73.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288211709.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288212086.jpg

_________________________________________________

I noticed I made a boo-boo , when I said the 76 2.7 Carrera's came with a 915/49 Gbox.

I just don't remember all numbers. So my easiest to grab reference when I wrote that , was Boschen & Barth's book "The Porsche Book".

They seem to have not proof read that chart quite closely enough. As when I double checked it today. Both of my copies (the 1st english translation / 1978 , & 2nd /1983) have the same mistake.

It's correctly 915/43

I've got factory a reference page for it buried deeper, if someone needs a copy.

Ratbox

here are some tail shots for you. Note mounting bracket only on left side. Also "double" shocked.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288212772.jpg

Underside left

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288212846.jpg

Underside righthttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288212936.jpg

Backside of tail

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288213033.jpg

different angles next 3 pics.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288213168.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288213387.jpg

and that's what I got. Anything else?

Ratbox,
I have seen several Carrera RSR motorsports gearboxes that either had just a type number or a type number and serial number but no "12" on them. I've also seen homologation series 901/911 type gearboxes without any indication that there was an LSD fitted. Those also often got 904 mainshafts with slipfit 2nd gears and there's no way to tell unless you open it up.

On production models, including the Carrera RS gearboxes I have seen, they have always been stamped with the "12".

So I think your inclination that they didn't bother on race stuff is probably accurate.

Thx M.M. , for your experiences & insight.


g911 ,

Not only thx much . But WOW , that's exactly what i wanted to see.


I cannot see every single bolt/nut head & washer . But in general , from what I can see , they all look untouched. So unless someone unbolted a single grill whaletail COMPLETE & original (at least the underside) , from another Z6Z6 copper brown metallic 75 or 76 Carrera which was a factory M473 car (with optional rear wiper !!!). I quess I'm going to say that this is an orig. M473 car .


(here's where hopefully someone in the community , or somewho who finds their way here sometime , can add their knoledge to the mix).

What's anyone elses opinion about the paint originality on the underside of this tail ?

And there's two other things i'm curious about :

Can anyone tell me why the exposed areas of the metal frame have that texture under the paint ?

Secondly - g911 ,

Can you peek under the black shield , and either snap a photo or tell me : is the inside of the fiberglass shell , the rough chopper gun type finish ? Or a woven fiberglass cloth finish ? (i've seen factory early style whaletails both ways) . I had been quessing that the tails produced with woven fiberglass cloth were from 1980 Weissachs ? ( as the fiberglass production process that uses woven cloth , I believe is a later process than the rough chopper gun ).

But I'm not 100% sure when they switched. It could have been much earler (whomever was doing fiberglass work at , OR FOR Porsche). I know that fiberglass pieces were made both by the factory and outside sources , and I believe at certain periods , it was at the same time ! (at least in 1972/1973 , probably later years also).


So does anyone know when the woven cloth fiberglass pieces start showing up. And whether it was an across the board change at all production sources . OR maybe both types , were at some point , produced at the same time ? As in a scenario , like one producer switched processes at some point in time but another did not ?? So that both types were being made in the same time period ?

And there might have even been three production sources at a time , at some point.

I believe I remember reading that in 1972/1973 , fiberglass pieces were being done in two separate locations within the company . And I believe one outside source , all at the same time.

I'll post a photo of the inside of a woven fiberglass cloth original whaletail in the next few days , after I go take a photo.

__________________________________________________ _________

g911 ,

If it turns out your car's exterior is original paint . I would touch/redo as little as possible of it.

Matt, thanks for posting the infomation that '12' on the transmission case means a LSD is fitted, reinforces the theory that the 1976 Carrera 2.7 series came with a LSD as standard.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288272038.jpg

Here is a photo of the South African car #107 which has a flat engine lid. It is however fitted with a front rubber lip which suggests it was fitted with a rear spoiler at some time.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288275801.jpg

Another South African Carrera, a one-owner '74 in Magenta which was supplied new by AFN in the UK, The owner was told that it had been a display car at the London Motor Show but I have been unable to find any evidence for him to substanceate this. Is anyboby on here able to help?

Guy

Wow, not sure what to make of the pink 74! Any idea what chassis number that is? Would it have been an early one if it was a motor show car?

When I saw the abshirmblech (shield) not painted on g911's whaletail , that's when I got excited. Figuring all the shields I had seen prior , that were painted body color ......(they normally only seem to remain around today on cars with 2nd grill tails , probably because these also come with Luftführung's / air funnels , which made owners less apt to remove them . Most seem to be remaining around the world today on early 3 litre 930's)...... were redone/restored.

Or maybe it's the opposite , that g911's has been added . That's why it is not painted ? Does anyone know whether they came painted or unpainted originally from the factory (on 75 Carrera 2.7's , Carrera 3.0's , & 3.0 L Turbo's) ???

Here's photo's of three painted examples (of which I have no if these whaletail's with accompanying pieces are original , or have been redone).

Any help on these whaletail originality issues would be helpful. As it leads to being able to determine if one was fitting or not on a car like 9120 when it pops up. And helps get towards the larger end question of what was the normal fitment of these cars.

Below are a few photo's of C3's / early 3.0 Turbo tails with shields remaining. ( I have a couple others but those are units that I know have been restored).

The first is from a 1976 930 US TurboCarrera with AC , I know because the person who had it knew what it came off of , and I have another photo showing the badge.

The second two are from either C3's with AC or early Turbo's with AC :


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288286002.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288286058.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288286295.jpg

I'm starting to lean torwards believing the shields were painted body color prior to leaving the factory. As not only does the silver tail above seem REALLY original upon looking at that photo. I have other's of it , and one shows a small sticker still attached. Showing a handwritten USA designation . I can tell this is factory.

And when I was viewing this photo below because I had been looking through all of them checking for the US 'TurboCarrera" badge .

I answered my own earlier question regarding how early woven fiberglass cloth shows up. It's at least as early as 1976 MY . As looks what's peeking out in between the air funnel and the edge of the hole for it :


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288287089.jpg


This is why I look for and save as many photo's as I can find regarding things I'm interested in. As the majority of the time. I find out what I want to know by pouring through , and studying photo's very closely.

__________________________________________________ ________

GWhite,

Your forgetting that on the gold car , it can also be the exact opposite scenario . The front spoiler could have been added just as easily as the rear tail could have been removed . Especially since not only has the car been restored. But it's more common for people to add a tail , than remove one.


So if it is the case that the abshirmblechs/shields were painted by the factory. Then it would point to 660 9120 (g911's) having had the tail added after the initial build. The only other logical explanations if the shields are normally painted , are :

That it was replaced . Or , on that particular car , it didn't get painted.

Once again , the mysteries continue regarding these cars.

By the way , are those shields black plastic ? , or thin fiberglass which in the case of 9120's would then be covered with black paint ? They look like plastic more to me.