LOL, you just played his game right there. That's exactly what he wants from you. A personal attack, so he can cry about it.

Thats a personal attack?

I didn't call him a name. In fact, I agreed with him.

Maybe I need one of Ronnie's "kiss my butt" gifs to soften the wording. :)

Ronnie is the smiley king. I bow to his greatness.

The point is, you're bashing me for suggesting anyone spends any real money maintaining a 911, and the very next Ebay ad I see has a guy dropping almost $20k in 1 visit to the mechanic. Hey, it wasn't a rebuild so you're right about that...

I'm not saying it's the norm, but you're posting bad advice saying these cars are cheaper to own than Corollas. I never saw a $17k mechanic bill for a Corolla.

It's laughable to think you're found some alternate universe there Porsche, Ferrari and Lambos are cheaper to own than Honda and Toyota. If that were true, I can assure you, people would be driving more of them. There's a reason the latter are the most popular cars on the planet. Economics.

Oh, and tell Silber to STFU as he hasn't read anything I've posted in month, but can't shut up about what I am posting. Stalker wacko.

It was 17k, not 20k -- no need to exaggerate.

Sure you are.

There you go again with Corollas. Never once used the word. But you are probably better off financially buying a Corolla if you are going to take your (mythical) Porsche to a dealer/shop for simple things like oil changes, air/fuel filters, brakes, and valve adjustments.

It is simple.

Pick a $25+ new car of your choice, pick a $25+ 3.2 911.

Calculate 5 year new car depreciation costs against the average maintenance costs for a Porsche owner who does his own maintenance.

Never anywhere have I claimed it is inexpensive to own a Porsche -- especially if you pay someone else to maintain it. But you are going to lose $12-14k on a new Camry within 5 years just by owning it -- and that is not a possibility -- it is guaranteed. Can you afford to take that capital loss? Then you can probably afford a 911 -- if you wrench on it yourself. If not, pick a different car.

Simple argument. Stop distorting it, just accept that we agree on it.

I would think someone who keeps bringing up "economics" would understand the concept of depreciation.

I'm not bashing you personally -- I am simply stating the obvious that you are either intentionally distorting reality, or have difficulty following simple logical arguments.

Apart from buying a Corolla, my other advice to you is if you are in a hole, stop digging.

And if you are tired of people like Silbur laughing at you, quit picking fights and playing the fool. Again...very simple.

You can find $17,000 worth of maintenance on any old Porsche if you look hard enough. The problem is that a lot of parts, trim, and seals will last many more years without replacement and doing things like engine reseals over small/minor oil leaks can result in similar leaks forming in a matter of months.

$17k vs $20k doesn't matter and I'm a jerk for calling bs on $5k vs $6k. 15-20% discrepancies clearly don't matter in PML's world.

I haven't followed the who PML saga and soap opera around here but I think that it's pretty clear the guy should not buy an older used car of any kind, much less a 911. They are just not for cost conscience, unmechanical types. Hell, they're not for cost conscience mechanical types. :)

They are a luxury good. Even if one has the money it doesn't mean that it's a good item for everybody to own.

Luxury good to specialty dealers, The 3.2 is monumental in every way. And those that were fortunate enough to experience one, well... Cheers to the lucky few

This is true of pretty much any classic car -- it is the difference between an excellent condition 2 or 3 "driver" and a true condition 1 concours car.

The increase in costs between good enough and perfect are geometric.

I love reading the BAT listings on the 1967 MGB with $40k in restoration costs -- for sale for $15k. If you want to spend it, there are things to spend it on. Often those costs have little effect on a car's reliability or "fun to drive" factor -- and only return pennies on the dollar in additional value.

Tell me when Gibson Les Paul's will come down by 50% too.
Not gonna happen.

About 18months after you buy a new one at guitar center :D

boy, sounds to me someone really hate their car (Porsche)

That implies he owns one.

The poster in question is hating a car he has never owned or even driven, and is (theoretically) trying to determine whether a wants to buy one.

He has repeatedly come to the conclusion that they are too expensive (for him) to maintain -- and that the juice isn't worth the squeeze -- but that hasn't prevented him from continuing the saga.

He contradicts himself constantly. A car that could potentially need a $5000 transmission rebuild and $10k engine rebuild isn't going to drop down to $15k or less when a good used gearbox is $2500-3000 and a used engine is $5000-6000. Add up all the trim and interior and sheet metal and you have a car a breaker can tear apart for well over $15k.

The sum of the parts will determine the bottom of the market on driver cars. And the parts have come way up in value in recent times.

I'm on holiday, visiting my fiancé in Charleston. I have the time to respond.

I have to say, and this is from the perspective of a very recent (first time) owner, that I believe in terms of bang for the buck, you can't beat the 3.2 (or any $20-25k air cooled 911).

Given that it is a 25 year old car at best, it will have items throughout the full spectrum of repairs and to do's from the absolutely necessary (subjective) to the finishing touches like coco mats or a new shift knob. You can spend as much as you want to on any car, and a 911 is no different.

I think the main differences that come in to play are somewhat qualitative in nature, but translate to which camp one belongs in from a quantitative criteria.

What I mean is that an old 911 is incredibly fun to trouble shoot and tinker with. It is so much more rewarding to tweak than the proverbial Corolla ;). When you figure out what's wrong with the car, and get it sorted, you're back to motoring in what is perhaps the most enjoyable driving machine ever constructed. The bonus is that you are saving a bunch of money, putting you in what we can call the COLB-Monson camp. Why call it COLB-Monson? I dunno, it was in a text book referring to dudes that know their **** and offer solid advice for free. But I would say that this camp is the larger here on Pelican, which is why the costs of ownership reported here would be polar opposite for the most part to what was quoted in an ebay listing of a $17k repair bill.

If you look at old 911 ownership through a strictly financial/economical lens, you are only going to force yourself to have to understand something about chaos math and crystal balls, completely missing the point of ownership, and therefor having wasted every penny spent on the purchase, sorting, and maintenance. Having said that, there is no substitute for first hand experience. There is also a very comforting bit of knowledge in the fact that you can get out of ownership for at least less than the cost of renting an exotic for a weekend, and in more cases than not (lately) you can even make a couple dollars for your troubles. Again though, I should emphasize that looking at it strictly from the financial side of things is pointless.

Corolla may not be the best example. They have a cult following, both the EA86 and earlier.
Toyota AE86 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One would need to set a year on the Corolla example or switch to the Camry. Personally I want a '76 Skyline to tinker with...

That was my first car in gran turismo 4 and 5! Loved it! I had it on racing slicks, titanium exhaust, level 3 weight loss, Limited slip, the whole nine.

Good call Matt!

Aside from PML's trolling on the subject, the folks that spend the really big money on maintaining and fixing these cars are the "checkbook mechanics" - those folks who take their cars to a shop for EVERYdamnTHING. Yeah, those folks are going to drop a lot of coin. Folks who can do a bit, or some, or a lot of DIY are going to be rewarded accordingly. These cars are painfully simple. Fixing them takes attention to detail, but not a big load of specialized tools, and certainly does not require an EE or CS degree to figure them out.

I can write you up a quote for a $17k gearbox job in about 5 minutes. And there are a lot of them out there that have spent that kind of money on a custom gearbox.

They say mods don't add value, and when it comes to custom gears and LSD and stuff that's not 100% true, but a $17k gearbox receipt will likely only add $5-7K to the selling price of the car. And it will require the right buyer. Not for an all stock kind of guy. For a hot rodder. That's the same guy who will buy a car with a $40k Gamroth slide valve twin plug 3.4l conversion on the original 3.0l case.

I doubt that owner got even a $10k gearbox rebuild.

I expect he got a $2500-4000 gearbox rebuild, plus $1500 for the new clutch and shifter, and $1400 for the Targa top.

Then the rest was spent on labor and minor parts costs for the other $10-12k.

I have never made any claims to any sort of expertise on anything automotive -- other than years of reading car ads, tracking prices, and buying & selling a few dozen cars of various makes. I have a "newbie" perspective of a guy who decided he wanted to learn about cars, and bought a Porsche 911 to play with -- and know what I don't know.

My VERY limited experience is a testament that a new Porsche owner with minimal skills, a basic tool set -- and a set of balls (OEM) -- can rebuild brakes, convert & rehab an A/C, drop a motor, fix oil leaks, replace gaskets, adjust valves, replace a clutch, and perform pretty much all of the basic maintenance on one of these cars -- short of an engine or transmission rebuild. Get the books, take your time, and ask for help from the community if you get stuck.

Life is too damn short to worry about recessions or losing money. Its a car, not a marriage. If you are scared, get a dog.

Colb,
I think you misunderstood my point. The checkbook mechanics can and do write big checks. The maintenance amounts we discuss here are puny in that realm. The other day someone expressed skepticism about an ad for a Carrera with something like $40k in maintenance receipts from the last handful of years. I never doubt those claims those I expect receipts.

I am actually honored to be in the Colb-Monson camp. I'm not afraid of getting dirty but I am NOT a mechanic. I am a businessman. One can find the neat and interesting things I did with Subarus by searching my name and "swap" or "my dyno results". That Subaru in my signature is a car I am really proud of. Its fourth engine is sitting on the floor of my garage right now.

If I was checkbooking that would be a $50k Impreza, including purchase price. I'm in for less than half that with 15 years of pleasure to show for it.

Yeah, I have towed it home from the track. Yeah, I had from sundown on Friday until leave for work Monday to rebuild the engine and get out the door with it.

I enjoy working on cars. Just like I enjoy gardening and rock climbing. Cars are toys to me. I like to play with them just like I used to play with Legos.

I've rambled on but want to make one comment in closing. I'm not some "baller". Just because I have customers who spend more on a gearbox than my 912 is worth doesn't mean I'm rolling in it. I can't afford most of my own parts. I've got one of my diffs in one of my cars. And aside from enjoying it, I can't afford the $100/hr most techs charge to do work on these cars. I work on my cars partly out of need.

A couple years ago a friend got to drive at the 24 Hours of Daytona. He owns a shop. He had just turned 50 and it was TRG's "D" car. Not their A, or B, or C. It was all gentleman paying drivers. He said to me,"Matt, this is a dream come true. I've always wanted to drive in this race. I still feel like the butler. I'm so used to serving these guys. But for the next day I get to be the master." I have yet to be the master, but that's not the goal. Like I said in my post announcing blocking PML I do it for the love.

If you aren't interested in turning wrenches on an old air cooled Porsche that's fine. Have a maintenance budget and be prepared to spend it. But aside from the occasional rusted fastener, they aren't too hard to work on. And Colb, google Pete Z's 915 Wiki. Read it. Might be a 915 rebuild in your future if you do. ;)

I didn't misunderstand -- I think my post was disjointed. With that particular car I was referring to, the context of the ad led me to believe that the actual transmission rebuild was a small part of the total $17k price. I totally believe you could spend a that much if you wanted to, but if that guy had, he would have focused on the transmission work and not all the other odds and ends that add up when someone else is doing them.

The honor is mine, and I am sheepish about it. I posted my comment above because I did't want to give the impression that I am some kind of authority on these cars -- especially from the repair/maintenance side. Of course, you don't have to be in the business for 40 years to know a tatty car when you see one. Or follow asking prices online.

If my opinions have any validity, it is as a bookend to the guys who do have decades of experience owning, building, driving/racing, and selling these cars. Because it is guys like me that are driving the 74-89 market -- Gen X'ers who were teens in the 80s, and now have the disposable income and time to buy the car that was on the poster in their bedroom. I expect there are far more guys like me -- moving up from Boxsters and buying their first air-cooled Porsches -- than there are guys like speeder -- who know the cars inside & out, and are pissed that the new guys are driving up prices. :)

Agreed -- and this is the message that other newbs inquiring about buying a 911 should be reading -- not at a $20k engine build is the price of admission.

Mines a G50. ;)

Reason number 47 the 915 is better. Any decent shade tree can build his own 915. Not so much with a G50. :p

Yeah, when I suggested the COLB-Monson camp, it was really a tip of the cap to what I find to be two dudes who often post in the market place with a fair temper and common sense, often with an impressive degree of patience when addressing certain circular arguments, representative of the majority of folks around here.

Cheers,


Marc

Which is important since that 915 will require 3-4 rebuilds during the lifespan of a similarly-used G50. :p

Exactly.

I've got zip ties, duct tape, and WD40 and I'm not afraid to use them.

Look at this craftsmanship:

http://i.imgur.com/ylygry7.jpg

Cute. :). But one of those myths the Internet has helped promote. The really issue with the 915 is so many cheapskates have owned these cars and done half arsed rebuilds on them over the years.

A properly serviced 915 should easily give you more than 100k mi between services. They are like a 2.7. You need to do them right and then their problems to away.

My last 915 was a recently rebuilt factory ltd. slip that I scored in a lot/group of parts bought. It was even the right year for my '82 911SC I was rebuilding at the time. Score of a lifetime, I think I paid about $350 for it on a roll of the dice and it was the best shifting, quietest 915 I've ever driven including dozens of brand new ones from Stuttgart.

A friend of mine bought an SC serviced by a well-known Ferrari shop. The previous owner had brought it in for a light, occasional grinding gear and the shop, without the owner's consent, rebuilt his 915 and refused to release the car back to the previous owner without payment in full. The guy smartly writes a check for $6000 and upon leaving the shop immediately calls the bank and cancels the check. Of course, the whole issue ends up in court, etc.

Anyway, he has the most miserable, notchy, force-of-god to get it in any gear 915 I've ever touched.

I don't really know the point of this story but I found the whole thing kind of funny.

The other thing to mention is the aftermarket junk parts being peddled for the 915. One company in particular makes parts that are out of spec and don't fit. A lot of mechanics are telling their clients that they just need to wait for the gearbox to break in. Not going to fix itself.

Oem is best when talking gearboxes. That same company makes synchros for the G50 and they fit just as poorly.

My gearbox seems to be in pretty good nick.

I intend on keeping it that way by not driving like a 16 year old. I love to spin it up to redline, but avoid forcing it into gear, and rev match & double clutch when appropriate.

I don't expect to rebuild it any time in the foreseeable future.

Spinning up to redline is good. Most knobs don't realize that short shifting works the synchros harder. When you rev it up, you really just have to wait until the shaft slows down a little bit and slip it into gear, no synchro action required.

Some of us clutch less upshift our 901 and 915 gearboxes.

Almost all of the problem with 915s historically have been caused by improper shifting and/or worn linkage causing improper shifting.

That and chronic fluid leaks that cause them to lose all I their lubrication. All causes are traceable to people who just should not own these cars.

I recently took delivery of a fully and properly rebuilt 915 in my sc. I love the old time feel, although it seems a little loosey goosey when compared to my other cars G50. Still fine, just a little more searching around for the gears. Kind of reminds me of my volkswagen days.
I hear Wevo makes a coupler that reduces or improves the action by 20%. Any experience with this?
Btw, nice to see a thread that informs and doesn't go negative for a change!
Nick

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Nick,
The Wevo internal gate shifter is the trick. Requires dropping the cover plate on the gearbox but totally worth it.

All the bushing, shifter, whisperer crap you read in Tech is really just about proper maintenance. You want bolt action shifting? Get the Wevo part that makes the insides of your 915 look like the console in Magnum's (Robin's) Ferrari.

That's the wevo coupler, $195, right? Not the whole magilla shifter? The description on the website for the coupler sounds like exactly what I want.

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