Advice in SC pricing

[nicctric12]

When time has allowed (new baby in the house) I've been reading a lot about the 80 -89 911s, and have been looking seriously for the last eight months for a 3.0 or 3.2 car.
I'm familiar with Porsches. My Dad is a 911 guy, not so much in the air cooled world, but he's had a 911 of one sort or another since about 95. Currently I work for the old man and so I'm on leased 2012 997 which is a well built car, and I thought the iultimate 911 until just by chance I got to drive a clients 1983 SC.
The SC is not the fastest car but wow what an experience it was. Just the visceralness of the experience, and the sense of being plugged in to the road was eye opening. It had this tight, stiff feel and the sound was intoxicating. I know the client and he's told me since my drive its a no expense car. I'd expected it to be a fun, but the rawness of the drive is something I haven't been able to brush off. (I don't know if its months of sleep deprivation from the new baby LOL) but you have to really be focused and feel the car. I loved it, it really is totally the opposite of what i experience day to day.

Long story short I have been looking since that day, and now have found out a family friend owns a car I have every intention of buying and I'm looking for advice with pricing. The car is an 82 SC in white. its a European / ROW car which has had four owners. Two Germans, one Dutch, and John my Dads friend. He imported it in 1987 and has all the EPA, Customs and DOT paperwork from the import.
He kept all the original parts and those were been put back on the car when some work was done ten years ago. The car was re painted in the original white color ten years ago.
The engine has been re built. John the owner told me he got caught in this while you are in there syndrome. The build sheet is extensive. But reading through it has updated tensioner's, new head studs, new cams, new valves, the list goes on and on. I took the car out last weekend and It drives very well, and pulls in every gear. (Actually John let me drive the car for virtually the whole of the weekend, and I was trying to control myself but just kept looking for excuses to go in the car) .
The clutch fork and clutch were replaced when the engine was taken out. The car shifts well, and I'm getting used to the 915. its not at all vague, but at the same time you do need to be precise with the revs. The shop replaced the original muffler system with an SSI system and a Dansk 'sports' muffler, but the car comes with the original heating boxes, european pre muffler and muffler. The long heating hose which runs over the fan has been relocated somehow below the engine into the SSI system (I think) The heat and AC works and John said he had the shop backdate the lever heating system ?
The car has 90,000 on the clock. When the car was bought in John bought a new speedometer from the Porsche dealer in 1987 when the car was bought to the US. The receipts document the mileage, and john has the original kmh speedo is in a box.
Overall the car has what looks like a very extensive and complete history which details it from the Munich dealership it was bought at until last week when it had its annual service. John the owner was working for Royal Dutch Shell in Holland when he bought it from another employee there. And he tells me its always been a pampered car. It has a 'Porsche' side graphic on the car which john says came on the car originally and was put back on when the motor rebuild was done.

The problems I'm having are that market is at a high point and naturally I don't want to overpay. I have some concerns about the fact its a European car and not a US model. There are very informative posts here and on Rennlist about the differences and I know some Euro CIS parts are quite rare.
The car has been well looked after, and has spent most of its time in either Texas, Palm Beach Florida or the Hamptons in NY. Its in much better condition than both of the 3.2 cars that our local Porsche dealer has. (My Dad has been doing business there for years so I know I get a break on the sticker price but John's SC just seems like a much better kept car)

Looking at other listing prices here and Rennlist, and knocking a bit off for the fact its a euro / ROW car what would you offer ?

[sm70911]

First off post some pics of the car !
I don't think the fact its a Euro car is a disadvantage in any way. I know some buyers worry about what was done to federalize the car, but to me it it sounds like a really great find.
I'd start the offer at low twenties. There was a white Euro, with a Pascha interior discussed on here recently that sounds very similar to the car you are looking at, with good history, and a re build, but missing the expensive goodies, Euro Lights, Fuchs, and with a ugly rear decklid that was asking $29.5k. I think it went for around $28k so it would seem starting low and getting towards that number makes sense.
However i'm sure in this market a car like the one you describe, even though its white, would go quite quickly so be prepared to go up with your offer to get what sounds like an ideal first air cooled 911.
Check this for an idea.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/797985-1980-row-911sc-white-pasha.html

[COLB]

I think it went for around $28k so it would seem starting low and getting towards that number makes sense.

It was a Weissach car, which some argue has a price premium. According to the seller the car went to a European flipper who immediately priced it at more than double the original sales price.

Without pics (and no mention of interior?) the car you describes sounds more like $27-30k rather than low $20s.

Maybe more if sold by a dealer in a wide market.

Low miles (verified), Euro with all parts, high spec engine rebuild. It sounds like a great car, and given the state of the market, if it were me, I would not be sweating about over paying a couple of grand. I'd worry about it getting sold out from under me.

[whiterabbit]

It worth more as its a Euro not less. Also you have the comfort of knowing the owner and an extensive test drive. I would agree with 27k -30k.

[sm70911]

Originally Posted by COLB

It was a Weissach car, which some argue has a price premium ....

It wasn't a Weissach car, it was an ordinary SC, with a redone Pascha interior.

I would also be careful about the car having been sat in areas close to the water. As well as Texas you mentioned both Florida and Long Island. Id be vigilant about any corrosion although it sounds like a looked after car and from the locales an owner who has money to spend on the car. Like the other posters although I would start low in terms of the offer, if it were me I would snap the car sooner rather than later and before the owner starts thinking about the sale

[nicctric12]

Thank you very much for the advice. I made an offer and now the deal is done. John said I should have played my hand with more subtlety !
Following the advice in the cash in hand thread, Im taking cash LOL. Ill post pics over the weekend

[COLB]

Originally Posted by sm70911

It wasn't a Weissach car, it was an ordinary SC, with a redone Pascha interior.

You are right, and I was confusing two different threads.

This is the car:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/797985-1980-row-911sc-white-pasha.html

Congrats on the new purchase! Glad it worked out. We will be expecting pics soon.

[nicctric12]

OK I have had a really crappy week. Basically my deal got torpedoed by the sellers youngest son. I went to pick up the SC with cash as part of what I thought was a done deal and when I got there the seller was suddenly very reluctant. When I asked him what the problem was and he told me that since i had been driving the car around over the holiday weekend two weeks ago his youngest son Matt had told him he had 'always wanted the car since he was a kid' or some other story. This came as a total shock to me, and apparently to his Dad !
Anyhow long story short it seems John's youngest son has exerted massive pressure on his Mom & Dad to see if John would give him the car. I know his older brother Chris well (same school & business) and he told me his brother Matt is always looking for the next deal, and is constantly trying to find ways of generating income. (Basically he sees himself as an 'entrepreneur' of sorts, even though he lives off his parents and currently he has no job but does use some money John gave him to 'Invest' in startups, and App development). Apparently it transpires Matt thinks the car is worth more than the $30,000 that John and I had agreed on as a fair price.
I spoke to John and told him, not to worry and I don't want to come between family members. The reality is I'm really freaking pissed. I know the car will be listed on Ebay but I cant say that because this is both a friend and client of my Dads.
On Monday I was thinking by Friday I'd be driving to work in the SC. Oh well back to the hunt.

[m962b]

Sorry to hear man.

Just sorry.

[speeder]

That truly sucks. I would have told him that I'd thought we had a deal and that the car was sold.

He's owned the car since 1987, and just now after he sold it to you his son expresses interest? That's some bull schit.

And it's not worth more than $30k. That's a strong price for the car as described. The only consolation I supposes that you didn't lose out on some smoking deal.

[sm70911]

Like Speeder said, forget it and move on. Don't push it or get involved with any family hoo hah, its not worth it. Clearly the parents who sound older are victims of last kid syndrome, and their little 'entrepreneur' is going to get what he wants. I'll bet you he hasn't realized how much work goes into selling a car. When he does you never know he might try and flip it back to you.

[pmax]

Did you try making a new deal with junior on board ?

[COLB]

Definitely not worth getting into family drama over a car.

I think I would give Jr an outline of the deal you agreed to, including that fact that you offered a fair price, and feel like there was a verbal contract.

Then tell them no hard feelings -- just keep you in mind if they change their minds.

[vracer]

Len Tillem, the Brooklyn raised SF area 'Loya of the air' has a saying, "You can't beat the stories".

[speeder]

Originally Posted by sm70911

Like Speeder said, forget it and move on. Don't push it or get involved with any family hoo hah, its not worth it. Clearly the parents who sound older are victims of last kid syndrome, and their little 'entrepreneur' is going to get what he wants. I'll bet you he hasn't realized how much work goes into selling a car. When he does you never know he might try and flip it back to you.

Ahhh, that's not what I said at all. Re-read my post if necessary. I said that I would have pressed the deal. What happened there is total BS and with friends like that, who needs enemies? A deal is a fking deal in my world.

And I would not offer to buy it from the son for more. The OP had a deal to buy the car.

As for the car and the price, if, (and this is a big "if"), the engine work was done by someone good with a rep in Porsche circles and if it is documented, that adds a lot of value to the car. 911SC cars of this vintage have epidemic head stud issues as well as other known defects, (weak valve springs that break during a particular date period that includes 1982 MY, for instance), and a proper rebuild with correct, OEM or better parts is a huge plus.

The ROW car and engine for 1982 is much more desirable IMO to an enthusiast, once again if the condition of the car is really nice and not all used-up. The '82 ROW had about 25 HP more than the U.S. model with higher C/R and larger intake runners, (early '78/'79 style on U.S. cars), these motors respond much more to an SSI/early style muffler change than U.S. (small intake runner) cars do. I had a U.S.A. '82 SC w/ SSIs, it was great but an early U.S. car or a later ROW SC gets a bigger bump from that.

This whole story sucks because you sound like a good dude. But once again, $30k was close to all the $$ for that car and you can find some amazing 911SCs with that budget if you look in the right places and pick your shots.

[NYNick]

Horrible let down. You were paying top dollar, but the car was original and had a lot going for it.

I'd make it clear your $30K is ready, willing and able and that you can buy the car at a moments notice. Would he want to hold onto a $5K deposit until the smoke settles one way or the other?(a little incentive here)

Best of luck. But with $30k burning a hole in your pocket, you should be able to find one helluva SC!
Nick

[LWJ]

Ok. Sounds like a nice car. When you said something about needing to be precise with the rev match? Trans is on the way out. I own an 80 and think 30K is high. I could be wrong. Drive some more cars. The market is high. I saw a neighbors car with a 12.5K price tag 6 months ago. There are lots of these around. All are used. Good luck!
Larry

[COLB]

Originally Posted by LWJ

Ok. Sounds like a nice car. When you said something about needing to be precise with the rev match? Trans is on the way out. I own an 80 and think 30K is high. I could be wrong. Drive some more cars. The market is high. I saw a neighbors car with a 12.5K price tag 6 months ago. There are lots of these around. All are used. Good luck!
Larry

Its an 82 -- Euro w/SSIs (with OE parts conveying), recent engine rebuild, working A/C, new clutch, verified 90k miles, all maintenance history.

You aren't going to find that for $12.5k. If all is well, $30k is not extremely high, IMO.

There are a lot of SCs for sale. But a lot of them are dogs.

I also wouldn't infer that the transmission is going out just because it shifts smoothest when rev-matching precisely. That has been consistent with all the 915s I've driven (not a huge number) -- maybe they all needed rebuilds.