'77 S Help me out here...

DanielDudley · 03:48 PM

So, I have an old friend, and he is now ill. We are hopeful that he may recover, but he has a long road ahead of him at the very least. I get a call a few weeks back, suggesting that maybe I would like to by his 77 S. He had mentioned it in the spring, and at that time I had offered him 12,000 for the car, and I haven't seen it in years.

So I looked at it and drove it, and the car apparently has a 3.0 built up to a 3.2. However, the car also has a lot of deferred maintenance, and CIS issues, particularly at start up. It is also a dripper, and leaks oil from the cam tower gaskets. So I had a PPI done, at my expense of course.

All in all, the car has some good points, the engine being the best feature. However, the compression in the #2 cylinder is down by 30 PSI. There is rust on the back door pillars at the bottom, and presumably under the rocker panel covers. Leaks oil all over. Vacuum leaks, slightly loose head studs. Backfires on start up, and has for years. Won't drive until quite warm, so this car has been idled up to temperature, for 13 years. Front end is slightly loose, tires are shot, and the front struts are tired. One heat exchanger is not so very good. Transmission was low on oil, and drips, but seems about average. Pedal box or clutch cable is very stiff.

There is also a big gash on the front fender going down the passenger side door. Seats are shot. Visors shot. Dash is good, rest of interior is fair. Paint is poor.

The mechanic who looked at this car is pretty adamant that the engine is probably due for a top end job and a reseal. I am not really inclined to disagree, although the car is fast, and in rude health. We sealed up a couple of vacuum leaks, and changed the plugs and the oil. Aside from oil changes, I don't really think the car has had any real maintenance for years.

Anyway, the mechanic suggested several times that I not buy this car, however, I have offered 9,000 dollars for it, and the promise that I will fix this car up, and not let it blow up. They would like more money, but I think they would also like me to have the car. Mostly I think they would like more money.

My friend doesn't really seem to understand that deferred maintenance eventually has to be addressed. His wife just wants more money, and I would like to help them out, but I also have a clear view of this car going upside down, even if I do most of the work myself. I have become somewhat attached to the car, but my rose colored glasses faded years ago. I am somewhat reluctant to offer more money, but if I helped them to sell the car, I would also have to be honest about its condition.

Does anyone have any opinions on this ? Besides MY wife, I mean...

Matt Monson · 11-02-2014, 05:11 PM

You are in the right ballpark though I would likely be willing to pay $10-11k for a car like that. If they go to sell it to someone else they should ask 12-13k and expect to get beat up a bit.

Much of what you describe wrong with the car you can fix yourself if you are at all mechanically inclined. If you checkbook restore it you will be upside down.

DanielDudley · 05:59 PM

Thanks Matt. I don't really know what this cart is worth, I only know what I think I can afford. That seems like a fair assessment. I already offered to help them sell the car, and gave them a copy of the PPI. I spoke to several local enthusiasts, and nine was the consensus. I think it has to be fair for everybody.

NYNick · NYNick's Garage

Another thousand bucks isn't going to kill you or the deal. He is your friend, he's sick and they thought of you first when they thought about selling.

Give them $10K, if that makes everybody happy.

Matt Monson · 11-03-2014, 05:34 AM

My logic is akin to Nick's which I don't think I was clear about in my post. I'd pay more because of the circumstances.

My advice on pricing is based on it being easier to go down than up. And they might get lucky and get $10k for it if they ask more but are negotiable. But if they sell it to someone else at $9500 are you gonna feel like you missed out?

CountD · 11-03-2014, 08:08 AM

No matter what, a car like this (or most mid-years) that are coming up for sale that need work just because they have been sitting it will cost you another $5k to straighten it out.

$10K is probably more than fair (considering the rust issues and if these are isolated in the areas you describe).

I know midyears well since I have been knee-deep in it for 2 years.

Any CIS car like this that has sat will need:

1) New fuel lines
2) A tank flush at the very least (may even need a tank)
3) Clean injectors
4) New accumulator
5) Possibly a WUR/Fuel Distributor rebuild
6) Wheels bearings (front), bushings, shocks
7) TIRES, TIRES, TIRES for safety
8) Brake fluid flush, maybe a new master, new rubber lines for safety

Listen, I am sorry your friend is sick and this blows but if you get too sentimental about the car and about the circumstances it will cost you. Bottom line is that it's a labor of love to begin with. Don't get bit, and to be fair on both sides they need to know that any Porsche is a $20K car (though now this is old math), a mid-year is a $25K car. And that's if you do all the work yourself. It can get overwhelming at times.

bgyglfr · 11-04-2014, 06:40 AM

My equation for a car like this (without the friend factor) is simple. Figure the value of the car finished. Get a clear idea of what it will cost you to get it finished given your skill set. Estimate what your time is worth for doing the work or dealing with getting it done. Subtract those amounts from finished value = purchase price. Keep in mind that your time should equate to sweat equity so you should come out ahead when it's all done. If not, you need to find another car.

77Targa0912 · 77Targa0912's Garage

After buying a '77 911S in similar condition this spring I can say the advice here is true. Getting the car for under $10k should be your plan. I had to replace everything in the CIS system and sourced a good used tank. I went ahead and had the top end done and added pressure fed tensioners. Thankfully the interior is in good shape and the paint is presentable. There is no rust on my car at all. I may end up having having close to $20k in it when I'm all done. I did everything but the top end. I removed, disassembled, and reinstalled the motor myself for the mechanic which saved a lot of money.

Good luck!

Matt Monson · 11-04-2014, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgyglfr

My equation for a car like this (without the friend factor) is simple. Figure the value of the car finished. Get a clear idea of what it will cost you to get it finished given your skill set. Estimate what your time is worth for doing the work or dealing with getting it done. Subtract those amounts from finished value = purchase price. Keep in mind that your time should equate to sweat equity so you should come out ahead when it's all done. If not, you need to find another car.

I think a more accurate way to calculate it is figure out what the car would be worth if you parted it out. And then subract 15-20% from that number for your time to tear it apart.

The problem with the restored calculation is that the quality of work will vary based on who does it. A shadetree doing a DIY restoration will usually only have the skillset to get a car up to condition 2. But if a shop is paid to do it, and makes it a condition 1 job, there's a huge gap in value. Nice clean drivers are trading hands in the mid $20s. Near perfect garage queens are another $10k or more.

bpu699 · 11-04-2014, 11:37 AM

The seller is probably comparing what he could get for the car from you, vs putting it on ebay.

You are calculating what you would pay for a similar car in good condition, minus work needed.

The two will never be the same.

If that car goes on ebay, it might sell for >$15,000 as is.

If your freind is really sick/dying, you ma want to tell them to do that. If you really want the car, let them know, and offer what you are comfortable with.

Then, its their decision...

Bo