Please Stop Selling to Flippers

[Kriz951]

These flippers are ruining the market for 911s:

First Sale on CL: $25,000

1990 Porsche Carrera 2 - EXCELLENT CONDITION

Up on Ebay immediately: $37,900

Porsche 911 2dr Coupe 2 | eBay

Please do your research and make sure you are selling to someone who will actually keep and DRIVE the car.

(also if you have a 5speed 964 targa for sale let me know)

[maninblack]

Why?

[stinkindiesel]

Originally Posted by Kriz951

These flippers are ruining the market for 911s:

Please do your research and make sure you are selling to someone who will actually keep and DRIVE the car.

Me thinks you're preaching to the choir here. I can almost guarantee you the person who sold this car originally on CL isn't reading the Pelican boards daily.

Carry on.

Gary

[Matt Monson]

For all we know the seller was buried with phone calls and took it to this dealer on consignment to maximize his profit. We don't even know that it is a flip.

[Jay993]

$25 is fair market value for a car like that, depending on condition. I've seen them as low as $20 and as high as $50.

[trader220]

Do you think that flippers represent themselves as flippers?

Hey I want to buy your car because I think it’s cheap and resell it for more at my dealership...okay?

I get the feeling many of them represent themselves as true enthusiasts.

[Fubawu]

so wait if someone comes and offers me my asking price I should see if they are going to try and re-sell it?? who cares?

[COLB]

Flippers aren't ruining the market for 911s. They are just exploiting the knowledge gap between some sellers and current market prices.

The market drives the prices, not the middle men.

[Kriz951]

I can't believe there are more than a couple people on this forum that are ignorant to this.

What happens when these prices rise too fast too quickly? The cars become collector's items and don't get driven. I can understand the desire to get your market price, but if you have several buyers, wouldn't you want the car to go to an enthusiast?

Also this guy isn't selling on consignment, he'd take down the CL ad first if he was that sophisticated.

Sure there is a knowledge gap between some sellers and market prices, but it appears we're at this point now where it's happened so much that we're seeing run of the mill stock, high mileage SCs and 2.7 cars listed at these dealers for north of 35 or 40. We all know that unless there's been some serious work done to those cars or they are unique for one reason or another, there's no way a stock SC or 2.7 should be selling for that much.

[ficke]

Originally Posted by COLB

Flippers aren't ruining the market for 911s. They are just exploiting the knowledge gap between some sellers and current market prices.

The market drives the prices, not the middle men.

Absolutely.
I will add that there are enthusiasts who exploit that same knowledge gap of sellers to get a deal on a car.

[ficke]

Originally Posted by Kriz951

I can't believe there are more than a couple people on this forum that are ignorant to this.

What happens when these prices rise too fast too quickly? The cars become collector's items and don't get driven. I can understand the desire to get your market price, but if you have several buyers, wouldn't you want the car to go to an enthusiast?

Also this guy isn't selling on consignment, he'd take down the CL ad first if he was that sophisticated.

Sure there is a knowledge gap between some sellers and market prices, but it appears we're at this point now where it's happened so much that we're seeing run of the mill stock, high mileage SCs and 2.7 cars listed at these dealers for north of 35 or 40. We all know that unless there's been some serious work done to those cars or they are unique for one reason or another, there's no way a stock SC or 2.7 should be selling for that much.

Your kind of thinking the tail wags the dog here. Buyers decided what is done with their cars and not sellers.
Let's say a seller screens his buyers takes a $5k hit to sell to a young "enthusiast" just getting into the Porsche world, seller feels good about himself until a year and a half later when "enthusiast" sells car because he needs the money and could not turn down such a high offer from the "collector" enthusiasts excuse to seller is he was just married and had to pay bills. Now original seller feels like a schmuck for believing that nonsense about a "forever car"
I do not believe anything any more from buyers, just money, lesson learned.
Nobody can predict the future.
Buyers decided what happens to cars not sellers.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Kriz951

I can't believe there are more than a couple people on this forum that are ignorant to this.

What happens when these prices rise too fast too quickly? The cars become collector's items and don't get driven. I can understand the desire to get your market price, but if you have several buyers, wouldn't you want the car to go to an enthusiast?

Also this guy isn't selling on consignment, he'd take down the CL ad first if he was that sophisticated.

Sure there is a knowledge gap between some sellers and market prices, but it appears we're at this point now where it's happened so much that we're seeing run of the mill stock, high mileage SCs and 2.7 cars listed at these dealers for north of 35 or 40. We all know that unless there's been some serious work done to those cars or they are unique for one reason or another, there's no way a stock SC or 2.7 should be selling for that much.

I suspect you don't know what a degil's advocate is if you are calling me ignorant. Read a few of the other threads here about the flipper phenomenon. I hate them but I don't start new threads to whine about them. I leave that to the newbies.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by ficke

Your kind of thinking the tail wags the dog here. Buyers decided what is done with their cars and not sellers.
Let's say a seller screens his buyers takes a $5k hit to sell to a young "enthusiast" just getting into the Porsche world, seller feels good about himself until a year and a half later when "enthusiast" sells car because he needs the money and could not turn down such a high offer from the "collector" enthusiasts excuse to seller is he was just married and had to pay bills. Now original seller feels like a schmuck for believing that nonsense about a "forever car"
I do not believe anything any more from buyers, just money, lesson learned.
Nobody can predict the future.
Buyers decided what happens to cars not sellers.

Yep. I think the biggest change since I was that kid with stars in his eye is the transparency. The internet and CL and EBay did that. I remember when I was 20 waiting for Friday for the new Auto Trader to be printed. Now it is a website updated in real time. And we can all review all sources for cars reselling in a way we couldn't before.

[Flynt]

Originally Posted by trader220

Do you think that flippers represent themselves as flippers?

Hey I want to buy your car because I think it’s cheap and resell it for more at my dealership...okay?

I'm somewhat of a flipper (work at a dealership/restoration shop), and I do that. I usually tell people over the phone that I'm buying the car to re-sell, and if they don't want to sell to me for that reason, no problem.

I also treat people with respect, show up in person, don't haggle over the price, and either pay cash or do a wire transfer while the seller waits. Lots of buyers - flippers, enthusiasts, rich folks, poor folks - don't do any of those things. Those are the people you should tell to kick rocks.

I'm also an enthusiast with a very limited budget and I own some cars that would make much more financial sense to sell - but I love this hobby and I love the cars. Most of the disposable income I make (some of it from flipping parts) goes right back into other enthusiasts pockets.

Blabbing about myself - but this conversation keeps coming up and everybody is painted with the same brush (not that I take offense - I get it). What does it matter what happens to the goods if you as a seller set a price, and get paid your price haggle-free by somebody that knows what it is that they're buying?

A better way to live and spark a market adjustment:
Don't buy cars/parts/etc from flippers.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Flynt

I'm somewhat of a flipper (work at a dealership/restoration shop), and I do that. I usually tell people over the phone that I'm buying the car to re-sell, and if they don't want to sell to me for that reason, no problem.

I also treat people with respect, show up in person, don't haggle over the price, and either pay cash or do a wire transfer while the seller waits. Lots of buyers - flippers, enthusiasts, rich folks, poor folks - don't do any of those things. Those are the people you should tell to kick rocks.

I'm also an enthusiast with a very limited budget and I own some cars that would make much more financial sense to sell - but I love this hobby and I love the cars. Most of the disposable income I make (some of it from flipping parts) goes right back into other enthusiasts pockets.

Blabbing about myself - but this conversation keeps coming up and everybody is painted with the same brush (not that I take offense - I get it). What does it matter what happens to the goods if you as a seller set a price, and get paid your price haggle-free by somebody that knows what it is that they're buying?

A better way to live and spark a market adjustment:
Don't buy cars/parts/etc from flippers.

Dealers aren't flippers unless they lie to get the car or lie about the history once they own it. Most flippers are curbstoners jumping title.

[Reddy Kilowatt]

Originally Posted by Kriz951

These flippers are ruining the market for 911s:

First Sale on CL: $25,000

1990 Porsche Carrera 2 - EXCELLENT CONDITION

Up on Ebay immediately: $37,900

Porsche 911 2dr Coupe 2 | eBay

Please do your research and make sure you are selling to someone who will actually keep and DRIVE the car.

(also if you have a 5speed 964 targa for sale let me know)

Expecting other people to do what you want seems like a fool's errand.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Dealers aren't flippers unless they lie to get the car or lie about the history once they own it. Most flippers are curbstoners jumping title.

This right here is the issue.

And ficke is right about the "tail wagging the dog" in your argument. Flippers, resellers, etc are a symptom of a hot market, not the cause of it.

Caveat ventidor is as much a part of the market as caveat emptor. There is a mountain of data and resources about car prices -- available in minutes on the interwebz. If a seller doesn't take the time to properly price his car, there are plenty of people willing to take the bargain -- enthusiasts included.

And lets face it -- car enthusiasts buy and sell their cars like women change clothes. Including Porsches. I've been driving 30 years, and have owned at least 20 cars -- and that number would be much higher if I wasn't married. And that is likely a VERY small number compared to most of the frequent posters on this board -- some of whom have owned 20 Porsches.

The guy who buys a car and keeps it for decades is as rare as hens teeth, and most of them buy new from the factory because they are too OCD to handle the thought of driving someone else's car.

Which is why true one owner cars are so unusual.

I also treat people with respect, show up in person, don't haggle over the price, and either pay cash or do a wire transfer while the seller waits.

You had me until the no haggling part.

I've never met anyone buying and selling anything for a living (or even a hobby) that wouldn't haggle over a price.

Maybe you don't haggle when the price listed is $5-10k under market, and you are first in line. I believe that.

[Flynt]

Originally Posted by COLB

You had me until the no haggling part.

I've never met anyone buying and selling anything for a living (or even a hobby) that wouldn't haggle over a price.

Maybe you don't haggle when the price listed is $5-10k under market, and you are first in line. I believe that.

I should have said "beat people up" over the price. Haggling is fair in buying used goods. And yes, anything under market value and it's:


Sidenote - you should hear the stories I got from a 30-year owner who sold me his '76 turbo. Some "big names" in our little world treating this guy very badly.

[Salt Man]

Hmmm, my experience is that for every clueless owner who offers his Porsche a little below current market value there are five others who ask way beyond market for their - often seriously neglected - specimen. Just look at some of the ridiculously overpriced offerings elsewhere on this board.
For me, this stale subject is becoming pointless.

[Norm K]

I just Picked up a 1980 Targa this afternoon. Told the seller on Sunday, before I ever saw the car, that she shouldn't sell it to me or to anyone else for the number she had in mind. She called me Wednesday and asked if I'd like to see and drive it, so I did. Although the car has some pretty significant paint issues, it runs and drives just fine. Pretty rough (although I've seen far, far worse) interior but good tires, recent clutch, fairly fresh Targa top rebuild and a few other recent items. When I got back from my test drive I told her again she was asking too little. I also told her that chances are, since I don't really have room for another car or time for another project that I'd probably just turn around and sell it. She said she was fine with that and offered it to me again. I said "deal" and we shook hands. However, even after that I asked her again, "Are you sure?" She assured me she was sure so we met up today and I gave her a check and brought the car home.

It appears I might on the verge of becoming one of those hated flippers ...