3.2 value question

[ncskier]

Yes, I'm new here. Please be gentle. I've been lurking for months as I've started my search for my first air cooled 911. I've recently found an 84 3.2 Coupe with 160k. Seller has some service records for the few years that he's owned the car. My first question is should I be concerned that at 160k the motor has never been rebuilt? Ad to that the fact that the valves have NOT been adjusted under his ownership of the car and I don't believe there's any history prior to his ownership.

Lastly, what would the value of this car be with this info? The car has some minor cosmetic needs but I get the sense that's it's been generally cared for overall. What would a very nice example be worth?

[BFT3.2]

Im ONLY speaking to the mileage; I have 157K on my 88 Coupe, never been rebuilt or opened and it tears down the road strong, loud and proud! Great compression and leak-down numbers just a year ago, no smoke, minimal oil consumption. It however has great service records going back at least till '99. Valves adjusted every 13-15K.
So it's mileage in and of itself is no big deal, but.. and Im no engine mechanic, to not of had the valves adjusted for a unknown period if ever is kinda scary. How long has he owned it? If over 15K and he didnt get the valves adjusted then it wasnt "generally cared for overall" in my opinion.

Have a highly regarded Porsche specialist do a thorough PPI on it including Compression & leak down. A PPI isnt a guarantee you'll never have a problem but it can reveal huge and minor red flags. Let folks here know where you and this car live and Im sure you'll get some solid suggestions for a mechanic.

Value?.. Who knows. It's all over the map these days with super high asking prices. My car with zero rust, great interior, average paint, great serv. history and a 100% rebuilt/upgraded suspension front & rear is worth anywhere from 28K to 38K depending on who your asking. I insured it for 40 but wouldnt sell it for 50 right now, we're on our 1 year honeymoon.

Good luck..

[Arne2]

I bought my '84 with 154k on it, but it came with complete service history from new (all 8 prior owners) and a documented top end job at 110k. So I had no qualms about the mileage. Many '84s would have needed valve guides long before 160k, but not all. So lacking good service history, I'll echo the recommendation for a thorough PPI by an air-cooled Porsche specialist.

[COLB]

A "very nice example" of a '84 Coupe in a standard color (red, black, white, platinum) is around $35k. But the car you describe doesn't really fit that bill -- at 160k with not much history, it may be a good car, and it may not be.

I wouldn't be concerned over the mileage as much as the probable deferred maintenance.

like BFT3.2 mentions, you should get a solid read on the health of the motor, and what it needs.

Do all the electrical components work? Speedo? Odo? Does it start easy, idle smoothly, and drive without cutting out around 3000 RPM? Do the brakes work without sticking or squealing? Does it smoke a lot at startup? On deceleration? Does it shift reasonably well? At a full stop, can you shift into 1st without grinding?

How much oil is it leaking, and from where? Oil leaks are not deal breakers. But if it is coated with old oil, it is not a good sign.

If it passes all that, you are comfortable learning to turn some wrenches, and you can afford it, it might be worth a risk.

It is hard to tell what it is worth without knowing what it needs, and odds are pretty good it needs a lot, unless the records say otherwise. Likely basic maintenance required:

- Fuel hoses (this is highly recommended on a 25+ year old car)
- New sensors (Cylinder head temp; TDC; RPM; O2)
- Vacuum lines; soft oil line
- Oil pressure sender
- Thermostat and breather gaskets
- Valve cover gasket kit
- Fuel, air filters
- Oil & filter change
- Valve adjustment

All that is DIY, and can be done for about $1000 using basic tools, a floor jack, furniture dolly, a Bentley Manual, and this website/community as a resource. Pay a garage to do it, and you are looking closer to $5k.

Unless it is a salvage/rustbucket or in pieces, $20k is getting to be the floor value for 3.2 coupes. And anything in good shape cosmetically that starts, runs, drives, and stops is probably going to be priced over $25k. Whether it is a good buy at that price is a different question.

If you can get it around $20k, and it has a clear title, there isn't much downside risk. If he is asking high $20s or more you are going to want to exercise some due diligence with an expert -- a PPI is worth the money if the sale conditions will allow it.

But if he is asking bargain price for it, don't be surprised if the seller sells it off to another buyer who is more risk tolerant, and able to act quickly. That is the way it goes in this hot market.

If you are not interested in getting your hands dirty, you should invest in a fully sorted car with a complete, up to date maintenance history.

Hope it works out.

[Nick Triesch]

I bought my car 5 years ago with 133,000 miles and it has never been opened up. Just turned 150,000 drives great. Also, that 84 3.2 you are looking at only averaged 5161 miles a year! Low mileage. One of the best Porsche mechanics in San Diego told me when I bought my car that these cars can go to 300,000 easy. I think most of the owners on this forum have higher mileage cars.

[ncskier]

Thanks so much for the info!

Colb, I'm not at all afraid of getting my hands dirty and it sounds like the car is priced appropriately, based on your post. Thanks again.


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[gregwils]

Mileage will impact the resale value, but 150k+ cars can run for a really long time before they need a rebuild. However, you probably won't know until it's driven 500 miles. I would argue oil consumption is one of the best diagnostics for the most common 3.2 issue (valve guides). If you purchase the car, fill the oil until it is at the mid-point on the dipstick marks, then drive it 500 miles. If it's still at the same point, you are good to go. If there is no oil on the dipstick, then you are due for a top end.

My other recommendation is to budget for parts, particularly on a car with no maintenance history. I would put it on a rack and go under the car looking for new parts - any kind of hose, suspension, exhaust, engine, etc. If you don't see much, then be sure to budget for lots of parts. I purchased my car in '07 with no history and have spent a minimum of $1,000/yr in parts. It seemed like I was making no progress initially, but now ($10k later) it is in great shape mechanically.

They are great cars, but now 30 years old. They need maintenance, so you either need a really big wallet or a modest wallet and lots of elbow grease.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by gregwils

Mileage will impact the resale value, but 150k+ cars can run for a really long time before they need a rebuild. However, you probably won't know until it's driven 500 miles. I would argue oil consumption is one of the best diagnostics for the most common 3.2 issue (valve guides). If you purchase the car, fill the oil until it is at the mid-point on the dipstick marks, then drive it 500 miles. If it's still at the same point, you are good to go. If there is no oil on the dipstick, then you are due for a top end.

My other recommendation is to budget for parts, particularly on a car with no maintenance history. I would put it on a rack and go under the car looking for new parts - any kind of hose, suspension, exhaust, engine, etc. If you don't see much, then be sure to budget for lots of parts. I purchased my car in '07 with no history and have spent a minimum of $1,000/yr in parts. It seemed like I was making no progress initially, but now ($10k later) it is in great shape mechanically.

They are great cars, but now 30 years old. They need maintenance, so you either need a really big wallet or a modest wallet and lots of elbow grease.

All good advice.

But getting a good read on oil use will take more than 500 miles. If it is leaking oil, that will affect your results as well.

Mine averages 600 miles per quart over 7k of driving, but the mileage I get per quart varies dramatically based on how it was driven (long trip vs lots of short trips), how long it sat (over the winter). It seems to burn more in cold weather than summer.

My car might benefit from new valve guides, but it passes emissions, doesn't smoke, and the plugs are clean. I won't even contemplate it until I am consistently under 500 per quart.

[TheGreg]

...look - just buy it. You'll love it.

I've got an '84 targa with 120k on it and its the best thing I ever bought.

[SpyderMike]

250,000+ miles plus with a valve job at 200,000 on my 1985. My car has had long times of inactivity and long times between oil changes and valve adjustments. It still starts and runs great. Definitely check anything rubber for replacement...especially fuel lines.

Drive and enjoy. Expect to spend some money down the road as it is an older car now.

I will be redoing suspension bushings next as I probable haven't noticed the slow degradation in handling over the 25+ years I have owned it (kinda like noticing my hair has now grayed some).

[Rick Brooklyn]

Related: looks like this car sold real cheap, or am I missing something?

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22717/lot/261/

[COLB]

Originally Posted by Rick Brooklyn

Related: looks like this car sold real cheap, or am I missing something?

Bonhams : 1986 Porsche 911 Carrera VIN. WPOAB0917GS122556 Engine no. 64G07216

I would say so.

Great color -- unusual on a Carrera.

If all is as described, he got a deal at $29,150 -- but realize the sale price was more like $36,500 with buyer's premium, which is 25% at Bonhams.

[Rick Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by COLB

but realize the sale price was more like $36,500 with buyer's premium, which is 25% at Bonhams.

Actually, no! The website says:Sold for US$ 29,150 inc. premium. And the premium is only 10% as per the same website.

So this is 29k all inclusive. I guess it's a helluva bargain. Not that I'm an expert, but the car looked very fine to me. I did have half a thought of staying and bidding. 'm kicking myself now.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by Rick Brooklyn

Actually, no! The website says:Sold for US$ 29,150 inc. premium. And the premium is only 10% as per the same website.

So this is 29k all inclusive. I guess it's a helluva bargain. Not that I'm an expert, but the car looked very fine to me. I did have half a thought of staying and bidding. 'm kicking myself now.

You are right -- the link says 10%, not 25% listed on the Bonhams website.

As I read it, the link is a little vague about whether the price listed includes the buyers premium, but you may be right.

Regardless, I think you are right that it was a helluva deal.

[COLB]

BTW - this one is interesing:

A 75 911s Targa (non-Carrera) went for $66,000!

Claimed one owner car, showing 31k mileage, but not verified by records. Silver Anniversary edition, but still -- that is all the money for a mid-year; especially for anything other than a 74 S.

Bonhams : 1975 Porsche 911S Targa Chassis no. 9115210050 Engine no. 645 0094




I also like this car:



http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22717/lot/222/

It is hard to find good XK120 dropheads under $100k, this one sold at $70k. Described as a strong runner driver, and there is nothing in the pictures that stands out as negative. Maybe it is full of bondo, but that hard to hide under black paint.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by COLB

BTW - this one is interesing:

A 75 911s Targa (non-Carrera) went for $66,000!

Claimed one owner car, showing 31k mileage, but not verified by records. Silver Anniversary edition, but still -- that is all the money for a mid-year; especially for anything other than a 74 S.

Bonhams : 1975 Porsche 911S Targa Chassis no. 9115210050 Engine no. 645 0094


.

Forgive me Ferry for I have sinned...
10 years ago I killed that exact same car. We purchased it down to bare metal and just rocker repairs from being ready for paint. Had a freshly rebuilt engine done by Storz with real RS P&C on Weber 40 IDS.

We stripped it. Got $10k for the engine. $2k for the gearbox. Pulled the whole interior and put it in the warehouse. The roller was sold to Renegade Hybrids for $3500. They cut it in half, put the halves on spinning rotisseries, installed radiators and an LS swap and made it part of their SEMA booth for a few years. Oh to have that car back right now...

[914agogo]

funny the auction house called it a drophead "coupe" ???

[Rick Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by pmax

How closely did you inspect the car ?

Not very closely at all - just walked around it a few times and peeked inside the window - and then again I have close to zero experience, but the paint looked nice to me, the panels seemed straight and well aligned, the seals looked tight. The interior looked fair for a 30 year old car. Mechanically it could have been anything, surely...

[COLB]

Originally Posted by 914agogo

funny the auction house called it a drophead "coupe" ???

That's what Jaguar called them: Drophead Coupes (DHC). Hardtops are Fixed-head Coupes.

Its a British thing.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Rick Brooklyn

Not very closely at all - just walked around it a few times and peeked inside the window - and then again I have close to zero experience, but the paint looked nice to me, the panels seemed straight and well aligned, the seals looked tight. The interior looked fair for a 30 year old car. Mechanically it could have been anything, surely...

The pictures posted show signs of rust on the body. Without a closer inspection, it's hard to tell how much. However, for this vintage, any rust pretty much kills the collectability of the car... and the mileage is another.

IMO of course.