"Easy Fix"

[Gaspassin]

Is it me or does this seem a bit misleading?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/893176-1978-911sc-targa.html

22K for the "Easy Fix"

Seller says:
"Respray, get some seat covers, and clean the interior up, fix the oil leak, and you have yourself a nice car for little money. "

These listings drive me crazy!

Respray $8K-$12K
Seat Covers about $1K for the front seats and $650 for the rears? Not including labor. Assuming you don't need the other $1K leather pieces. $300 For a new steering wheel.
A carpet set is what $800? then you have the "oil leak". If compression is good and the tensioner and head studs have been done then this might only be another 1K? If not...

so 22K + 15K = 37K for a nice runner if everything else works.
I guess the old adage about buying the best car you can plays true here. Or maybe the seller should place a realistic price.....

[77Targa0912]

It's just the going rate for a complete running air cooled Porsche. 2 years ago you could have picked this car up for $10k, but times have changed. This could be a great car for a DIY enthusiast. Even at the prices you quoted for a professional cosmetic and mechanical freshening the owner could break even in the near future.

It's not like he's asking $30k like some adds I've seen.

[SilberUrS6]

It's an easy (but time-consuming) fix for folks who have the skills to do those things. A windows-out respray is pretty expensive if you have someone else do it. But if you have the skills and the tools, it's only time and materials. Doing upholstery right is hard, for sure, but folks on PP have done their own work, with great results, and no prior experience. For a committed DIYer, this might be a great starting point. Because the underlying car has value, even if you screw stuff up, it's still a better looking car than what you had to start out. If I had space for this as a project, I might think about it.

[ficke]

It is not realistic to subtract 'fix up' cost to arrive at a purchase price on a car. As a seller that just irritates me and shows the naiveté of the buyer or his assumption of my gullibility.

It is also almost always cheaper to buy a car done than to fix one up.

But many people do not have finished car money so they buy these fixer uppers because that is all they can afford at the time.
That puts a heavy demand for entry level cars and artificial inflates the price beyond their realistic value.
Now what is bad on the buyer is when they have a done car price on a fixer upper, and 20-25k is now the light cosmetic fixer upper SC price, so this seller is "spot on" I would say on his asking price in todays market.
Running complete SC's might fall under the 20K mark and you would be hard pressed to find a drivable SC for less than 15K.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by ficke

It is also almost always cheaper to buy a car done than to fix one up.

For those folks with the guts, getting into a project like this with a DIY attitude might make financial sense. While it won't pay back at market rate for the DIY time spent, you can make a profit on the car + materials + tools, plus you get to keep the experience you gained. If you treat the time spent like hobby time, then you're really up if and when you sell the car.

[CountD]

I paid around $5K for a '75 911s that was/is rust free in mid 2012. It needs a respray, interior, complete fuel system as it sat for 20 years and more. I am wondering now if even that was too much. Money goes really, really fast on a tired and beat 911 even if you're doing all the work...holy moly

[ficke]

Project cars are a unique market.
Many of them or worth more in parts than they are as a car.
And what a car "needs" is different to different people.

For instance, two years ago I was asked by a friend if a one owner, original paint, always in Southern Cal. 1984 Carrera with all documents including window sticker and driven daily was a good deal for $10,000.
The clear coat was flaking and the paint was fading, seats were dry and coming apart. door and window seals were dry and leaking. Engine had three broken head studs, second gear ground a little if shifted at normal speeds.

So I asked my friend what he wanted the car for?
If to fix up and sell, no do not buy it.
If you want a done car, No. Buy one for 40K it would be cheaper and you will have immediate.
gratification.

But if you want a cheap fun to bomb around in 911 buy it and drive it the way it is and fix what you want along the way. So he bought it has put over 6,000 miles on it. Only fixing things he needs to drive it, turn signal switch, fuel accumulator, oil change and tires. He does not "need" paint... yet or seats. He takes his time going into second and the heads are not leaking yet.
Cheap 911 to the right buyer, money pit to the wrong one, same car.

[Gaspassin]

Originally Posted by ficke

Project cars are a unique market.
Many of them or worth more in parts than they are as a car.
And what a car "needs" is different to different people.

For instance, two years ago I was asked by a friend if a one owner, original paint, always in Southern Cal. 1984 Carrera with all documents including window sticker and driven daily was a good deal for $10,000.
The clear coat was flaking and the paint was fading, seats were dry and coming apart. door and window seals were dry and leaking. Engine had three broken head studs, second gear ground a little if shifted at normal speeds.

So I asked my friend what he wanted the car for?
If to fix up and sell, no do not buy it.
If you want a done car, No. Buy one for 40K it would be cheaper and you will have immediate.
gratification.

But if you want a cheap fun to bomb around in 911 buy it and drive it the way it is and fix what you want along the way. So he bought it has put over 6,000 miles on it. Only fixing things he needs to drive it, turn signal switch, fuel accumulator, oil change and tires. He does not "need" paint... yet or seats. He takes his time going into second and the heads are not leaking yet.
Cheap 911 to the right buyer, money pit to the wrong one, same car.

Thanks to you and Silbur for the input. It is why I asked. I appreciate the perspective. I can see how getting the car for "cheap" and working your way through repairs while enjoying the car is a viable option for some.

I wonder if the "easy fixes" are just the tip of the proverbial iceberg in a car that appears a bit "neglected".

However, this certainly appears to be the new reality in pricing these days.

[Gaspassin]

Now which car is the better deal? The first one or this car with headstand problem, but fairly low mileage. I guess you wouldn't label the second car as a driver.
Nice flip for the guy who bought this from his neighbor....

Porsche 911 SC | eBay

[gearby]

briefly looking both cars over, there is no comparison. The one on ebay is a much better deal. Much better bones to start with.
Bottom line is, if a buyer is one of those kind of people that takes his car into the shop and says," its broke," then buying a finished product is a better deal for them.

[ficke]

Originally Posted by Gaspassin

I wonder if the "easy fixes" are just the tip of the proverbial iceberg in a car that appears a bit "neglected".

However, this certainly appears to be the new reality in pricing these days.

Easily. The "while I am in there" is what really cost and tolerance level.

Cosmetics is the real killer for escalating the slippery slope of spending.
What is your tolerance level? Some people or happy with a paint job they did in the back yard masking off most of the car, or fixing just the fender with a friend over beer.
Others will not be happy unless it is a fenders doors off, widows out, no mask, completely disassembled down to steel rotisserie paint job with all new rubber that cost a fortune. These people look at the proud owner of the back yard paint job and say "his car needs paint" because anything less than perfect is a car with needs.
Mechanics do not give you as much leeway but there still are choices that can really ad to the cost of ownership and not much return any where else but piece of mind.
In an engine real build, some have to install a new oil pump, others feel fine with reusing the old one that was working fine before.
Or doing the repair work at all, the friend I mentioned, asked what he should do about the broken head studs in his 84, my advice was nothing, drive the car until you hear what sounds like an exhaust leak. It cost the same to fix now or later. But some people would have to fix it now, as soon as they found out about it.. Even though the heads studs might have been broken for years and many miles. Personal Comfort, tolerance level. Choice with out a real right or wrong. That is why it is all over the map how much people spend on these cars.
Good luck and may you make good choices for you.

[NYNick]

Originally Posted by ficke

Project cars are a unique market.
Many of them or worth more in parts than they are as a car.
And what a car "needs" is different to different people.

For instance, two years ago I was asked by a friend if a one owner, original paint, always in Southern Cal. 1984 Carrera with all documents including window sticker and driven daily was a good deal for $10,000.
The clear coat was flaking and the paint was fading, seats were dry and coming apart. door and window seals were dry and leaking. Engine had three broken head studs, second gear ground a little if shifted at normal speeds.

So I asked my friend what he wanted the car for?
If to fix up and sell, no do not buy it.
If you want a done car, No. Buy one for 40K it would be cheaper and you will have immediate.
gratification.

But if you want a cheap fun to bomb around in 911 buy it and drive it the way it is and fix what you want along the way. So he bought it has put over 6,000 miles on it. Only fixing things he needs to drive it, turn signal switch, fuel accumulator, oil change and tires. He does not "need" paint... yet or seats. He takes his time going into second and the heads are not leaking yet.
Cheap 911 to the right buyer, money pit to the wrong one, same car.

Completely agree here. Until it blows up in some way, shape, or form and you're stuck with a plant holder in your driveway that needs huge money/fixing.

I'm in the 'buy a done car' camp.

[CountD]

I don't really need paint or interior. What I do need is safety.

An early 911 needs a lot to make it 'safe'

1) New brake lines and hoses
2) New Fuel lines
3) New Tires
4) New brakes
5) Probably a new master cylinder with caliper rebuild
6) Gas tank at least flushed
7) Valve adjustment
8) New shocks (or at least make sure yours are OK.
9) Check suspect wiring on the dude that wired in some '80s alarm with straight gauge wire and the Alpine deck that is unfused and hooked to the ignition
10) ...and it never ends

Even without the paint and interior...it's a tremendous and time consuming job.

[ficke]

If you have the money "buying it done" is the best way to go.
Unfortunately the price of these cars has rising so much that many new buyers have to compromise and buy what they can afford and not what they want.
But your point is a good one,
Spending the money upfront will save you in the future, so buy the best one you can afford, it will be cheaper in the long run.

[NYNick]

Loud and clear Ficke, loud and clear.

My son purchased what he could afford/wanted to spend. A fixer upper, high mile Carrera with some rust issues, deferred maintenance, minor interior needs, non working A/C etc. I won't tell you the price because it's his, but it was pretty cheap.

He now has, after many hours of his own labor, a sweet, fast, bad boy hot rod that he's not afraid to drive hard or to Home Depot if he has to. Plans for upgrades and the fixer upper list is an ongoing affair. He has the time, inclination and desire to work on his car.

These cars are just cool, no matter how you slice it.

[Otter74]

Threads like this make me appreciate my car even more. I got (in July) what I wanted for what I could afford, and came in well under budget, and well under the price of this car.

[johnvan8]

I really enjoy working on my car (nothing major, just little fixes). So I never look for a car that's all done. In fact, I find that whenever I've reached a point where there's not much left to be done (that I can do myself), I kinda get bored and get that itch to look for another car. I know a few guys who enjoy working on their car MORE than driving them. It's a hobby. I buy needy cars because it gives me pleasure to fix them up, not because I'm trying to save money. I know that it will cost more in the end, but that's the price of having fun!

[diy83sc]

"easy fix"

Doing this now to my Weissach. While I could have sold it as a fix-up, seems like the market has more turn key buyers than do it yourself types. It did not matter if the price was less knowing the car needed cosmetic work and therefore dollars. It helps to be resourceful ... need a resourceful buyer.

To contain costs, I am removing the fenders, glass, frames, handles, lights, bumpers, etc., and handing the paint work over to a competent shop and reversing the order. Mechanically otherwise sound. Will drive for a few years, finish interior, and sell off when ready. Will get the satisfaction of doing the work and passing on a nice car at a then fair price.

[Gaspassin]

Originally Posted by ficke

Easily. The "while I am in there" is what really cost and tolerance level.

Cosmetics is the real killer for escalating the slippery slope of spending.
What is your tolerance level? Some people or happy with a paint job they did in the back yard masking off most of the car, or fixing just the fender with a friend over beer.
Others will not be happy unless it is a fenders doors off, widows out, no mask, completely disassembled down to steel rotisserie paint job with all new rubber that cost a fortune. These people look at the proud owner of the back yard paint job and say "his car needs paint" because anything less than perfect is a car with needs.
Mechanics do not give you as much leeway but there still are choices that can really ad to the cost of ownership and not much return any where else but piece of mind.
In an engine real build, some have to install a new oil pump, others feel fine with reusing the old one that was working fine before.
Or doing the repair work at all, the friend I mentioned, asked what he should do about the broken head studs in his 84, my advice was nothing, drive the car until you hear what sounds like an exhaust leak. It cost the same to fix now or later. But some people would have to fix it now, as soon as they found out about it.. Even though the heads studs might have been broken for years and many miles. Personal Comfort, tolerance level. Choice with out a real right or wrong. That is why it is all over the map how much people spend on these cars.
Good luck and may you make good choices for you.

Thanks for the input. I recently bought a '79 SC. I think it is in the Driver category and should have some "needs" that I'm hoping to address while I drive the car. I am also in Tucson so maybe in January I can thank you in person at Cars LaEncantada?