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Location: Wilmington, DE
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Gonna need some advice here...
Ok, I would like to preface this by saying I did not have a PPI done on the car. I fully expected, and actually wanted, to redo suspension, brakes, and minor (possibly as far as top end) to the car. My only concern was rust. I knew there were no mait records. I was looking for a car with no rust and but was possibly in need of mechanical work. The seller told me the floor pans had been replaced at some time and undercoated as well. I could see in the pics this was the case and it looked OK.
The car was 150 miles away. It was advertised in the classifieds (not here) as a RUST FREE car, no indication of accident damage... I was in contact with the seller for 1-2 weeks asking questions, coordinating pick up, payment, etc... Today was the day I was getting the car. After confirming last night the car was ready and drivable for the 150 mile trip back I took the train to meet the owner and car. I visually inspected the car (not on a lift) drove the car a good bit, poked around as much as I could without damaging the car, and concluded it was solid. Not perfect but solid. The car made the trip back relatively worry free. I took it right to my mechanics place (we're good friends) and pulled in just as he was closing up shop. We agreed we'd put it up Monday and look what suspension, brake, engine...work it might need and start the process of getting it in good drivable condition. I left and within 10 minutes my phone started blowing up with pics of rust under the undercoating. Lots of rust. Like structural rust near the rear torsion bar area, rockers, jack points, bad repair on floor replacement...just bad. I live in Delaware. The seller lives in Virginia. I texted and spoke with the seller at first saying it might be fixable, and he agreed to work with me after I got is assessed. But after speaking further with my tech friend its likely not going to be "cost effectively" fixable. So I texted the seller saying I'd pay to send the car back and we can call it an unfortunate situation. So, is there anyone out there that is familiar with the laws in Virginia? I did research and it looks like there is consumer protection. Things to note - It was advertised, and verbally confirmed twice, that it was a RUST FREE car. The seller did tell me the car had been repainted at one point because the original color code was for light ivory. I have not yet signed the title, or my copy of the bill of sale, but did sign his. The bill of sale was not notarized. Payment was made via transfer of funds at a bank we both have accounts at. Car was also advertised as Sold As Is. Car is a 1967 Porsche 912 Thanks in advance for any help or advice. Please refrain from the "buyer beware" etc...comments. There are times when certain things can not be determined until a later time. I knew what I was getting in to with regard to a near 50 year old car, but I was told many times the body of the car was solid and rust free. I'm hoping it doesn't come to a legal mess but I figured I'd reach out the Pelicans for any guidance in the meantime. Thanks again.
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1983 SC - sold 2002 996 C4S - sold 1968 912 |
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12-04-2015, 05:04 PM
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War Vet
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What did the seller say when you offered to return the car? Btw, there are very few cars that old that are completely rust free, even in good condition, they rust from the inside out. I have a pretty solid 67 912, but there are spits here and there, nothing barring it from being a great driver...
MattR |
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12-04-2015, 05:12 PM
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Location: wisconsin
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Pictures?
What did you pay? This colors the expectation of what the car looks like... Most rust you can see by just looking under the car with a light... Certainly bad rust... Do you have it in writing that the car is rust free? If this goes to court, here's the key point: Rust free, if in writing, could be a win for you... The negatives: Car was as is. You had a chance to inspect it, and it's across state lines... If you paid $25k for a pristine car, might be worth a lawyer. If you paid 8 grand... That's a different story, and the car is probably yours. Take your time, fix it. Good luck |
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12-04-2015, 05:13 PM
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Location: Wilmington, DE
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Quote:
I paid $27k for the car and was assured it was a solid car with no issues. I know it's a bit high but it was close enough that I would save transport for something farther. I did inspect the best I could when I actually put my hands on the car but short of jabbing a screwdriver in it I wasn't going to see much, and I was going on the assurance that the pans were replaced and other issues were addressed. I don't believe I was intentionally mislead because I don't believe he ever really looked to the extent I did when I got it home and on the lift. That said, he shouldn't of advertised it, or verbally confirmed the car was indeed rust free. Or at least that how I see it.
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1983 SC - sold 2002 996 C4S - sold 1968 912 |
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12-04-2015, 05:53 PM
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Bill of Sale reads-
I, ....... Hereby certify that I am the lawful owner of this vehicle. And have the authority to sell it. I hereby acknowledge the r capital of a non-refundable deposit $$$$ in the form of bank wire transfer to the xyz credit union from buyer (Me and my address). I do hereby grant, sell and transfer full ownership of this vehicle to the buyer at the agreed price of $$$$$. This vehicle is sold "As Is". I certify that this vehicle, at the time of sale, is free from all encumberances, taxes, fees, and liens, and that I (seller) will defend and be held fully responsible for such lawful claims and demands with respect to this vehicle, if any. I do have pics but I'll have to load them up later. I'm really looking for any guidance in to what any of May have experienced with this type of thing in the past, before I get in to the possible repair...salvageable....but I can assure you that if you see the pics you'll agree this shouldn't have been sold as a rust free car. I think the weight of putting in on a lift opened some areas of undercoating that were concealing rust.
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1983 SC - sold 2002 996 C4S - sold 1968 912 |
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12-04-2015, 06:03 PM
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Make sure you save the samba ad...
Any 911 that need the floor pans replaced has rust everywhere... That should have been a clue. It's all fixable. If the seller is willing to knock of several grand, you can fix it... I assume the buyer isn't willing to take the car back? Few would. You mentioned that the rust was not easily seen, and could only be found poking around on a lift with a screwdriver. Legally, that hurts you. If you couldn't easily see it, how was the buyer supposed to know? This is way beyond small claims, assuming you already paid... Which means a lawyer... So, let's say $5000 to start... Try your best to work it out with the seller... Realistically, not sure I would expect them to take it back... Here is what I learned from watching judge Judy...an as-is sale is just that, unless there is an implied warranty. Claiming in the ad that it's rust free, could be construed as an implied warranty. But the fact that you inspected the car, likely negates that... Hopefully a lawyer chimes in... Last edited by bpu699; 12-04-2015 at 06:10 PM.. |
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12-04-2015, 06:04 PM
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I'm not gonna get upset about a little rust repair, but this is jack points, rear torsion area stuff, structural, that's this problem. I know well enough that there's always gonna be a little bit. I was lead to believe this car had all the typical rust issues addressed. And I just wasn't comfortable asking him if I could start poking in to his car with a phillips head.
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1983 SC - sold 2002 996 C4S - sold 1968 912 |
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12-04-2015, 06:09 PM
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Wow, I don't know on this one. I would be as nice as possible to the seller and really, really try to work things out (ie. get the car back to him and your money back).
Going to court should be your last resort. Don't threaten it. Don't mention it. It hurts peoples feelings and makes people irrational. It would be a long mess, and then you'd have to collect. And winning is only half the battle. Collecting is another thing. Be really rational and be level headed and nice. Say that it wasn't what you were expecting. Tell him there are issues. Tell him you are a true Porsche guy and it just will not work out. Really try to work it out on the human level. I cannot stress this enough. Even though emotions are running at redline, take a step back and go in and let the blood return to your head. What's done is done. Don't beat yourself up over it, as you did what you thought was right. A correct floorpan replacement, as Techweenie will tell you, is a very arduous and very technical replacement. It costs $20K to do right. And you have $20K in rust repair in the car you just bought - at least. As you know, these cars were built to rust, and as words of wisdom that Matt930s said, there is no such thing as a 'rust free' car. It's there somewhere. Even in Southern California cars that never left. |
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12-04-2015, 06:12 PM
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Just be super nice to the guy and win him over. Threats won't get you anywhere. You seem pretty level headed and I think you'll prevail. |
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12-04-2015, 06:18 PM
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If you are heck bent on returning it, offer the guy $3000 to return it. Let's call it a restocking fee...
Sucks to do, but cheaper than your other options... |
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12-04-2015, 06:26 PM
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Yes, a lawyer please!  Not sure how or what to do and when? I'll give him time but I think after a few days I'd he hasn't responded it means he won't be. I guess the state attorney's office?
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12-04-2015, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
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1983 SC - sold 2002 996 C4S - sold 1968 912 |
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12-04-2015, 06:43 PM
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Still here
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TheSamba.com :: VW Classifieds - 1967 Porsche 912
Is this it ? Here's a good read "The appellate court noted that the effect of the “sold as is” clause was to shift the assumption of risk regarding the value or condition of the vehicle to Roberts, despite any express or implied warranties made by Lanigan. In other words, Roberts agreed to rely on his own assessment of the condition of the vehicle in spite of Lanigan’s representations. Therefore, if a consumer’s alleged injury is only that that car is worth less than anticipated, the consumer will be unable to show that the seller’s representations caused the injury. " Good luck. http://www.dealerbusinessjournal.com/articleview.php?id=651-58148 |
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12-04-2015, 06:48 PM
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That's it. It would suck if I have to take this hit in total. It's still VERY early for me to be making any assumptions on the sellers character, it's only been about 6 hours since I put it on the lift but I'm just gutted about it. I've always wanted a 912 and I just sold my 996 C4s to get one.
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1983 SC - sold 2002 996 C4S - sold 1968 912 |
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12-04-2015, 06:56 PM
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Oh, and there's a brake fluid leak and either the carbs need rebuilt or the ignition...timing...something is wacked, but I DID make it home.
Like I said, that kinda stuff I can fix, rust.....grrrrrrgh!!!
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1983 SC - sold 2002 996 C4S - sold 1968 912 |
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12-04-2015, 07:01 PM
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This is not going to look good for the seller's reputation. He looks like a P-car guy so perhaps he cares about that enough to work with you. Of course, there's the possibility he was the guy who "restored" it. |
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12-04-2015, 07:02 PM
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He's a good guy, or at least he seems to be, let's hope he does the right thing. The Porsche community is pretty small thanks to forums like this and others so yes, cred is essential.
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1983 SC - sold 2002 996 C4S - sold 1968 912 |
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12-04-2015, 07:05 PM
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I think him taking it back at par is a tough proposition. How much is the car worth as a donor car? That's going to be his price point I would imagine. I don't see a scenario where you walk away without a loss (besides transportation).
If he agreed to buy it back at, say, 80 cents on the dollar I'd give it to him in a heartbeat.
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"Fraud is everywhere in this hobby. Believe nothing, believe nobody, expect disappointment." |
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12-04-2015, 07:33 PM
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I would tend to agree with Rick. I don't believe there is legal recourse unless you can prove that the seller intentionally misled you and not even sure if that would even matter.
When I bought my 87 from a dealer, there were several things that popped up that did not show up in the PPI. That being said, the seller never specifically said that there was not an issue and then there was that specific issue like the rust. For a 48 year old car and a model of car that is known to rust, I think you will be in a tough spot. All of this could be a non issue if the seller did not know of the problems and is willing to take it back but I don't think he is legally obligated to do so. That is what scares me about these care. I don't know enough about them. I'm sure even expert flippers get into cars that are not what they thought they were. I think what folks need to understand is that even if this guy doesn't take the car back, it doesn't necessarily mean he is "bad guy." if I were a seller, I would be he could have bought this car for market price and got something he didn't expect either. I truly hope it works out for you and the seller. Good luck. Last edited by HugoBear; 12-04-2015 at 08:13 PM.. |
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12-04-2015, 08:10 PM
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Location: Alberta,Canada
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I'm a 60 year family dealership owner. CountD is totally right. Be nice nice nice.
1. Consult a local lawyer because I'm not from your state . 2. Insure the car fully 3. Bring it back ASAP and park it on his driveway. 150 miles is peanuts. Bring a ride home, leave it there. 4. Be nice and try to obtain a refund. It's a bit like a store, don't talk refund without bringing the car back that's just dumb. 5. Do it immediately, don't waste a moment. 5. Leave it there for some days while you try to work it out (it's insured). 6. Pray for success. 7.Expect to fail, as is is as is if the seller wasn't a dealer, you test drove it and agreed to pay. You should have used the cars jack and lifted it on the jack point , that's what it's for. 8. If the seller is a dealer - sue him in small claims court without a lawyer. In my town judges often help the "little guy" in small claims court. Your state may not have that. 9. Best of luck. I've only bought back one unit in the last 20 years and it was when the guys lawyer wrote me a letter and I decided not to battle him. 10. At worst you have a car you can resell on eBay and get some money back or keep and drive till it breaks. |
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12-04-2015, 08:38 PM
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Black Label
