Where else should I look?

[specialtyoneinc]

Definitely drive a 915 car...just make sure it's well sorted. You'll definitely find it more engaging/old school plus they are a little quicker than the G50 cars. 1986 is the sweet spot (IMO) with the larger vents. Best of luck with your search.

[Mick_D]

Here's one local to me, with a great dealer that knows their stuff:

1987 Porsche 911 Targa G50~Fresh Top End Re-Build Wylie , Texas | Dallas Motorsports

[GothingNC]

Originally Posted by Mick_D

Here's one local to me, with a great dealer that knows their stuff:

1987 Porsche 911 Targa G50~Fresh Top End Re-Build Wylie , Texas | Dallas Motorsports

My friend picked up a 993 from that dealer last year and had a nice road trip home with his Dad back to NC.

Engine is now removed for valve guides and fixing oil leaks after a few DE events.

[autojack]

I knew I was opening a can of worms by mentioning the gearbox A coworker has a 915 car which I got to drive very briefly - we're going to get together again for a longer test drive as soon as scheduling allows. And I just found a local G50 owner who is willing to let me give his a try, so I will definitely assess both and may open up my search to older cars. I'm NOT imagining that the 915 is TERRIBLE or anything - it's simply that when I hear both of them described, even by enthusiasts of the 915, the G50 sounds more suited to my driving style and experience (late 90s Japanese sports cars), in addition to being somewhat more reliable. I promise I'm not just listening to internet/armchair commentators as I think about this topic, I've read books and talked to experienced Porsche mechanics (Marc at Red Line, for one) to get impressions.

Since a few of you have mentioned it, I might as well spell out my current thoughts on budget and what I want to buy. I can talk about this all night and all day (as my wife will attest). I've been a gearhead for 15 years, always bought used cars through private transactions, and always done anything from basic to intermediate maintenance and repair work myself. To go along with that, I've always been obsessive about soaking up all the knowledge and expertise I could get about the cars I owned or wanted to buy. But my ownership history to this point has been exclusively late 90s and early 2000s Hondas. Obviously the shift to the Porsche world, especially the 80s era, will be a big one. I'm aware that a forum like this is a fantastic resource (honda-tech.com is the Honda world equivalent where I burned countless hours in years past) and I've already spent a lot of time just reading, reading, reading. I guess this is just to say that I'm not stone cold ignorant, but I have a LOT more to learn.

My budget right now is $40k max, and a preferable number would be about $37k. That's taking into account assumed future maintenance and operating expenses. This is a marital agreement and probably not negotiable right now, so let's just leave that as it is. Once I had the budget set, *then* I started researching recent ads everywhere I could to try and get a sense of what it would buy me. I don't want to be a low-baller trying to convince people to knock $10k off their asking price; I want to find a fairly-priced car and buy it if it suits me. I have found two so far that fit the bill at first glance, but PPI uncovered issues that made me walk away (both PPI mechanics said the prices were too high given the issues; one didn't want to lower, the other's issues were too much for me at any price).

Initially I had a preference for targas, openness to coupes, and no interest at all in cabriolets (which I've seen the most of for sale, ironically). Since then I've decided I only want a coupe. I'm not interested in ones with burgundy or dark blue interior, or burgundy exterior. Anything else is fair game, I think, color-wise. And as I said previously, I had been limiting myself to '87 or '88 years. If I had seen an earlier car for sale locally where I could actually drive it, I think I would have. But if I was going to have to buy it sight unseen from someplace else, it just seemed like the G50 gearbox would be closer to what I think I like and am used to, and thus a safer bet. I guess I didn't realize that the price premium for it was as large as some of you have suggested. But I did realize that I was limiting myself a fair bit, so I'm not surprised that I haven't found much so far.

So what did I think I could get for that price? Obviously not a cosmetically and mechanically immaculate car. I think if I had a choice, I would take a cosmetically nicer car with some mechanical issues over a paint-faded rusty car with recently-refreshed mechanical parts. But maybe my budget dictates that I should reverse that (except for the rust part). I'm want to drive the car, not sit in a lawn chair and stare at it If I have to get it painted down the road, would that be so bad? I was prepared to buy a targa that needed a top-end rebuild if the price had been right, so that should give a sense of what I'm willing to get into. I just don't want a basket case or a restoration project. Something that is cosmetically "good," and ready to drive either now or after some known mechanical work is done, would be fine.

I expect this to be a lifetime purchase, which is one reason I'm trying to be somewhat picky. If you're thinking, "Well then who cares how much it costs," again, I'm not the only one setting the budget This is what is in my head right now; fire away with any thoughts you may have. I'm hoping I don't sound like a hopeless idiot!

[Mick_D]

Well, hey, forget I said anything. Sheesh.

Originally Posted by GothingNC

My friend picked up a 993 from that dealer last year and had a nice road trip home with his Dad back to NC.

Engine is now removed for valve guides and fixing oil leaks after a few DE events.

[GothingNC]

Originally Posted by Mick_D

Well, hey, forget I said anything. Sheesh.

It had close to 80,000 miles which seems like it is about the average life span for valve guides in a 993.

Autojack, $40K seems like a good budget for an 84-86 Carrera coupe.

It is really hard to find a decent G50 coupe for under $40K unless it has issues, I think most of the nice ones have left the country or picked up by dealers...

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by autojack

I knew I was opening a can of worms by mentioning the gearbox A coworker has a 915 car which I got to drive very briefly - we're going to get together again for a longer test drive as soon as scheduling allows. [...] I'm hoping I don't sound like a hopeless idiot!

Well, sounding like an idiot is routine here, so at least you're in good company. It's good you're going to get a little more 915 seat time. And here's why: $40k as a ceiling for a G50 car means you're going to have to compromise on something. Those cars often run into the mid-40s these days. If you JUST HAVE to have a G50, you'll be looking at spending some additional money later to fix stuff, and that's just to get it up to reliable driver quality. Take it from me - I have been drive hydraulic clutch Audis for 20 years prior to buying my 911. It took me all of 10 minutes to retrain myself to drive a 915 properly. If you're driving the car for fun (which I assume from your posts), then speed-shifting isn't necessary. If you're driving the car for competition, then a 3.2 car is the wrong place to start, IMO. Better to leave some money in reserve and get an SC, since money is an issue. Don't worry, once you start racing, money will REALLY become an issue.

OK, so the mental aspect of driving a 915 transmission is an easy one to get through. As far as more reliable? I've seen the argument go both ways. A well-treated 915 will get you through Porsche life cheaper than a thoughtlessly-shifted or neglected G50. Because a G50 is more expensive to fix when it breaks. And a well-treated 915 can go well over 100k miles. OK, now to the real issue. It's the same issue I had when I purchased. The spouse-imposed upper limit. That also limited my G50 choices, and soon I realized that the compromises I'd have to make would be unacceptable. So, I started not looking at G50s anymore, and the available cars really expanded very nicely. And many, many were in my price range, and were in good shape. Because G50 cars run into the mid-40s now, while 915 cars run mostly in the 30s, you'll get a better car for your money if you stick with the 915 car. And, if you shop well, even if your 915 needs a refresh at some point, you'll still have money left to address it, and restart your clock on the transmission's life. These are all things I thought about before I bought, and the only thing that's changed is the price on the cars. All the other considerations are exactly the same.

If the car is in stellar condition mechanically, is on it's original paint and interior, and fits your budget, reconsider the color choices you've made. Peter Zimmerman is right - color doesn't matter. I promise, whatever color you pick will grow on you as you drive the car, if the rest of the car is in good shape.

[Mick_D]

So because you know of a car that needed valve guides when all the other cars like that needed valve guides at the same time, this guy shouldn't look at a completely different kind of car from the same dealer?
Logic is astounding sometimes.

[GothingNC]

Good post from Peter Zimmerman from a while back. Also a good friend of mine now has Zimmerman's red 83 911 SC Coupe, over 200,000 miles and still runs great

The newest SC is a 1983, the oldest 3.2 is an ’84, and a nice ’81 is only five years older than a good ’86. Needless to say, we’re not talking Model As and Mustangs. The first thing we do is throw out the comparables of the two models. The SC and Carrera, through ’86, all use the same clutch, and engine removal is no more difficult on one as the other. The ’87-89 3.2 cars use a different, more expensive, clutch. It is no more reliable, requires additional labor, and the flywheel, if worn, can’t be machined. I think that it’s safe to say that the clutch is a wash.

Starter motors, shock absorbers, tires, suspension components, brakes, etc., are pretty much the same on both models. SCs and ’84-86 Carreras use a clutch cable; ’87-89 Carreras use a slave cylinder and related hydraulics. Those items can be considered a wash because replacement frequency is similar.

Minor and major services on both models are fairly equal in both labor times, parts, and mileage periods; and life expectancy of alternators, motor mounts and oxygen sensors aren’t different enough to mention.

Let’s look at the “replace once in a blue moon” items. They are reference sensors (3.2), oxygen sensor relay (SC), auxiliary air valve (SC), injectors (both), decal valve (SC), idle control valve (3.2), and throttle switch (3.2). Another pretty equal category, I would have to say.

The biggie repairs are ones that a super-sized wallet can make easier. Each model has a glitch in this category; SCs (some more than others) suffer from broken cylinder head studs, and 3.2 cars (some) suffer from high oil consumption. Cost-wise those two jobs are comparable, certainly close enough to not weigh one model against the other.

All SCs and the first three years of 3.2 cars use the same transmission, the 915, so that’s a wash. Enter the G 50, used in ’87-89 Carreras, that’s a bullet-proof unit that should last at least 250,000 miles. So, the ’87-89 cars edge ahead in our “race.” But wait a minute! The typical SC synchro repair will cost between $1500 and $2500 (more for a “rebuild”), while the typical 3.2 car with a G 50 will cost $5,000 - $8,000 more than a comparable condition SC to buy. Of course, you get power seats and improved A/C along with the great trans. But that, in my mind, is not sufficient cause to eliminate an SC (or ’84-86 Carrera) from consideration.

Let’s explore other typical repairs that SCs and 3.2 cars require over time. I’ll mention here that this is pretty consistent through 200K miles, beyond that many “repairs” become “restorations.” We’ll start with the famous SC airbox; replacement will set the SC owner back $1200 - $1400. On the flip side, the 3.2 Carrera’s air flow meter will fail in a way that the car will still run, but fail its annual/bi-annual smog inspection. Replacement is necessary; and the cost will be $800 - $900. CIS fuel injection (SCs) use a part called a Control Pressure Regulator, aka Warm-Up Regulator. The part is rarely replaced, most often when moisture has entered the car’s fuel system. With moisture present all bets are off for both models! The part is available for about $600, and labor/setup adds another $200. On the other side, 3.2 Carreras have a pair of engine compartment fuel lines that require replacement, which, including intake manifold R&I, will remove about $1,000 from your wallet. Back to the SCs, and a part called an accumulator which will cost about $350 (diagnosis and labor replacement is minimal). 3.2 Carreras have two relatively small issues, one can leave you stranded (DME relay); the other will make the car exhibit unusual symptoms (cylinder head temp sensor). The relay will cost you about $50, the sensor about $350 installed. So, at this point, repair costs are $2350 (SCs) and $2150 (3.2s). Have we got evidence yet that SCs should be avoided, or even be reduced to a second-tier car? I think not.

Upgrades. OK, Carrera tensioners. That’s about it, and so many SCs have had this done it’s almost like they were original equipment anyway. Yes, we can mention anti-roll bars with increased diameters, but don’t forget, if you “must do” them to an SC, you also must “upgrade” ‘84/85 Carreras with them also.
I think that this post clearly shows that either car (SC or Carrera) is worth consideration, and that for every potential purchase condition should be the overwhelming factor. Like I said earlier, we’re not talking Model As and Mustangs here.

[NYNick]

I think the whole thing is pretty clear by now. At your price point, if you can find an 87 or 88 coupe in great shape, you'll be a very lucky guy. Buy it. Quickly. Forget the color.

But you probably won't find one. You will find an SC in that condition however, for $37K.
Buy that one, also quickly. Focus on all the important things you've already mentioned. You will find a better SC at $37K (or less even) than you will a 3.2 G50 for the same price. The 915/G50 argument is moot in my opinion. It just doesn't matter. Just make sure the 915 is in good shape, which it should be on a $37K car.

Befriend your local shops. They know where the cars are.

Nick

[GothingNC]

Is AC a necessity for you?

[autojack]

Originally Posted by GothingNC

Is AC a necessity for you?

Not here in San Francisco, but if I eventually export the car to Australia? Uh, yes

[specialtyoneinc]

Originally Posted by autojack

Not here in San Francisco, but if I eventually export the car to Australia? Uh, yes

Well I hope you like the feeling of hot air getting blown through a ice cube.

[autojack]

Originally Posted by specialtyoneinc

Well I hope you like the feeling of hot air getting blown through a ice cube.

Feel free to elaborate on that one!

[autojack]

Thanks again for all the thoughtful replies, this turned into a much different discussion than I expected

Let's say I widen my search to 1984-1988. Besides the gearbox change, anyone want to call out the important differences between those years? Something about better HVAC in 1986? I'll look through my copy of Peter Morgan's buyer's guide when I get home.

[RDUNCe30]

Gothing mentioned Peter Zimmermann's car, so I will follow up.

I am the current owner of Peter's old car. I went over 209,000 miles this past weekend when Gothing led a group of us air cooled cars around some country roads east of Raleigh.

The 915 is different, but it has become one of the things that I enjoy. I drove a 964 and then a 911 SC a few days apart when I was searching. Really different driving experiences. I was coming from a Cayman 2.7 5 speed and had a past history of manual BMWs (E30, E36, E46).

Be patient with a 915 and enjoy the drive. It makes performing a smooth shift a skill again (I started driving in 1967) - something many people can't do.

BTW, I ended up with a Guard's Red car with a Carrera wing. My original goal was any color other than red with no wing. I paid for several PPIs for Carreras and the cars were not as advertised. When I bought my car with no PPI and very limited records and high miles (just under 203,000 when I bought it 18 months ago), I was very nervous, but a number of folks here at PP and on RL pointed me towards Peter's car.

I guess my point is that I recommend you consider all available cars with an open mind.

I have been happy with the entire experience, including the 915. I may take the wing off someday, who knows?

Good luck with your search.

Sam

[Scottc714]

Originally Posted by NYNick

I think the whole thing is pretty clear by now. At your price point, if you can find an 87 or 88 coupe in great shape, you'll be a very lucky guy. Buy it. Quickly. Forget the color.

But you probably won't find one. You will find an SC in that condition however, for $37K.
Buy that one, also quickly. Focus on all the important things you've already mentioned. You will find a better SC at $37K (or less even) than you will a 3.2 G50 for the same price. The 915/G50 argument is moot in my opinion. It just doesn't matter. Just make sure the 915 is in good shape, which it should be on a $37K car.

Befriend your local shops. They know where the cars are

Nick

^^^^^^^^^^
This, This, and this. end of story. Especially about the 915 gear box. A lot of woes can be corrected with a 20 dollar bushing kit and a couple adjustments. Just make sure the synchros are not grinding. You have to learn how to drive and shift these trannies. It takes time to develop a feel for it. I have 2 915 cars and 1 G50. One is not better than the other. There just different.

Re the G50 for 40 K max..it will be a beater. Your asking for a call girl but can only pay for a 2 dollar hooker

[Scottc714]

Porsche 911 Carrera Coupe 2 Door | eBay


98 watching but no one pulling the trigger. As soon as someone does, a bunch of guys will go..'oh man i could have had that". it looks pretty good to me but does have some paint issues. Its a good example of what your looking for and better than a lot of what i see. Adding 5 grand to your budget might bring more cars into play for you

[Nachtfalter]

Originally Posted by Scottc714

Porsche 911 Carrera Coupe 2 Door | eBay


98 watching but no one pulling the trigger. As soon as someone does, a bunch of guys will go..'oh man i could have had that". it looks pretty good to me but does have some paint issues. Its a good example of what your looking for and better than a lot of what i see. Adding 5 grand to your budget might bring more cars into play for you

That's the same car I posted on page 1, that hasn't even been cleaned or detailed..... it's a damn nice car. It's nicer than his pictures indicate.

[Scottc714]

Originally Posted by Nachtfalter

That's the same car I posted on page 1, that hasn't even been cleaned or detailed..... it's a damn nice car. It's nicer than his pictures indicate.

So you did , I didnt click on the link..until now and i agree a damn nice ride. Aint gonna get much better than that in that price range.