Rebuilding a 3.0l SC as a turbo

[flat6pilot]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I'll stick with my plan of having knock status/control.

[Coultl]

I will be running ECU Master Black on my 3.2 turbo conversion. I used the same ECU on my 95' Audi S6 that's running 30 psi of boost. It's a very versatile system and, yes, having knock detection is a big deal. My opinion is that Black is definitely worth it over the Classic. Also you will want to get the SD card data logging add on. VERY helpful when the car does something you didn't expect and you need to go back to diagnose.

For knock control, I've heard that the air cooled engines are so loud that the knock detection is of limited use. I'm still going to give it a try and will be installing the Porsche knock sensor bridge on each cylinder bank.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by Coultl

For knock control, I've heard that the air cooled engines are so loud that the knock detection is of limited use.

Difficulty: If that were true, explain why the factory fitted knock detection to the 964 generation onward?

Originally Posted by Coultl

I'm still going to give it a try and will be installing the Porsche knock sensor bridge on each cylinder bank.

Contrary to the advice given in the Bosch knock sensor product brief #292000P1LM-2016-DS, which states:

FUNCTION
The knock sensor is mounted on the crankcase and measures the
structure-borne noise using a piezoelectric measuring element.
Knocking is discernible by its higher sound frequencies.

Other sources state to avoid locating the knock sensor too close to the valve train, as this is noisy.

Just bolt it to the block - pretty much the conventional location for most vehicles that came from the factory with one.

On the transmission bellhousing works fine, per Jake Raby.

This works for the same reason that you can (apparently) hear a train coming by listening to the rail, or whale songs are audible for an estimated 30-160 KMs underwater - thicker medium propagates sound better, which would dissipate much more rapidly in air.

[mikedsilva]

I'm using an Emu BLACK and have a single knock sensor mounted to the bottom of the throttle bellcrank on the top of the case.

Being very new to ecus and software, I'm not qualified to give any advice, but from what I've learned so far, you need to run the engine to record the normal range of frequencies produced when it isn't knocking and then set set the levels in your knock table to be higher than the recorded frequency. So that if the ecu detects a frequency higher than the levels you've set for your engine, it determines it as a knock event.

[Coultl]

The 964 used the knock bridge. I figured Porsche had their reasons so that’s why I opted to not bolt to the block. I don’t know how active the knock control was in the 964, but all manufacturers put serious time and $ into knock detection. Aftermarket ECUs that listen for a single (user defined) resonate frequency are very basic by comparison.

It’s possible that the block is the better place to mount the sensor for this engine. These kinds of things are rarely intuitive. Most OEMs mount to the block but up along the cylinder, typically near the top. The whole engine structure is pretty rigid so maybe the location isn’t that important

In my Audi I added a third knock sensor that I ran to an audio amp and a headphone jack in the glove box. Actually listening to the engine is what many tuners do as the knock sound is unique and easy identified. Not louder…but more harsh. I also tuned the engine on E85 to get a good engine noise baseline that I knew was knock free. You then set an allowable noise level beyond that baseline across various rpm and manifold pressures. I set it very close to the base engine noise so I get false detection pretty often. I’d rather stay on the safe side and have it pull a couple degrees of timing every once in a while.

[Tippy]

Originally Posted by flat6pilot

So the project is lightly being held up finding someone to do twin-plugging on my 3.0l heads.

Question: I found these 3.3 930 turbo heads on eBay that have been rebuilt and twin plugged already. Would they work on my 3.0l motor?


Porsche 911 turbo Carrera 3.0 Cylinder Heads twin plug Fully Refurbished 930 3.3


https://www.ebay.com/itm/124530804835?itmmeta=01HV2BN4JNFNBDNBCZSB9SEHTS&hash=item1cfe9d4863:g:4NEAAOSwV~NgAxDM

“cgarr”! Did mine for the price of a good night out at a restaurant

[flat6pilot]

Transmission re-gearing is done and will be picking up tomorrow.

Long block is also nearly done. Might be able to pick up as soon as the end of this week or early next week.

It probably would've been done last week but we ran into a small snag with one of the oil control rings having a relatively small defect in it. (I could hardly see it until the builder pointed it out) We wisely opted to just get a new single piston set to replace. We don't want to create any hot spots along the ring. I'll add a pic of it later.

[flat6pilot]

I got the long block back. Just in time for winter here in the PNW.

Now the fun begins. The plan is to basically get things up and running with my existing set-up: MSII, fuel-only.

I'm installing/adding the Clewett CAM sensor, TPS sensor and a knock sensor as I'll eventually upgrade to the MS3PRO EVO and go for a full sequential setup with COP twin-plug ignition and fuel. That's the plan at least.

I have a list of things I need to do before installing and the first start. May not be complete but it should keep me busy for awhile.




I'm excited for the twin plug setup! However, I won't have it fully setup during the first phase of start-up and break in.





One of the smaller side projects is to replace all the fuel lines pictured below and converting to -6AN fuel lines, plus a new Aeromotive FPR.

Paul Mason is helping me with some connections to get me going. I also plan to use his fuel kit to replace the tunnel lines as well.

[flat6pilot]

Some cosmetic progress and a little camshaft drilling....

Mocking up a few pieces on the motor to see how things look and fit.





Prepping the valve covers for paint.



Moving forward on updating to modern AN fittings and PTFE lines.



Some painting progress.



Cam sensor done and installed.

[jonesb930]

Kyle,

Where did you source the fuel rails from? Any info you have on these would be great.

Bill

[flat6pilot]

Originally Posted by jonesb930

Kyle,

Where did you source the fuel rails from? Any info you have on these would be great.

Bill

I originally got them from the Bitz racing MSII EFI kit about 15yrs ago.

https://www.bitzracing.com/

[flat6pilot]

Fitting the intercooler. Relocating from side intake to bottom...

[ToySnakePMC]

Enjoying the build thread. It’s really looking nice. I’m sure you’re getting excited now.

[flat6pilot]

Originally Posted by ToySnakePMC

Enjoying the build thread. It’s really looking nice. I’m sure you’re getting excited now.

Yes, excited and nervous at the same time. So many things can go wrong on a fresh rebuild. I'm trying not to think about it that way...

I'm nearly ready to install in the car, but I have surgery scheduled tomorrow that will lay me up for a couple of weeks. Sometime in March though...

[flat6pilot]

Cleaning the engine bay to paint, but first starting to weld in some gussets on the shock towers for possible coil-overs in the future.

[flat6pilot]

[Raceboy]

VEMS has had onboard dual WBO2 and dual knock for like 15 years, just sayin'..

Nice build!

[flat6pilot]

Originally Posted by Raceboy

VEMS has had onboard dual WBO2 and dual knock for like 15 years, just sayin'..

Nice build!

Thanks! I'm already familiar with Megasquirt. I like the ease of tunability, and price is right there with the VEMS, which also includes the harnesses. MS has become a lot more robust over the last few years with lots of cool features without adding to the price. And like a lot of the high-end ECU's, the support is huge!

[flat6pilot]

While I recover from my hernia surgery, I figured I could get the sequential harnesses created, fitted and out of the way for when I'm ready to make the switch.



Starting the Ignition Harness. Cylinder 1A and 1B (top and bottom) I'll cut and splice in the common ground and power once I have these all made. These connector pins are a PITA to build.


Test fitting the top and bottom Ignition harness piece, with pass-thru hole cut in the engine tin to keep things neat.




Injector Harness is complete. I'll dress it up later once it's been tested.

[flat6pilot]

Getting close to first start....

Electrical test and check = Good
Fuel test, pressure adjustment = Good
Oil and engine prime coming up next....





ECU configured for slightly increased displacement (3.0 --> 3.2), VE Table increased 6.6% to compensate for the increased air. Injector FuelReq adjusted from 444lb to 60lb = Done




New Stack gauges installed (Fuel Press, Voltmeter and Boost) Fuel/Volt = Good
Shifter tunnel raised. Adjusted and shifts good as it sits. Interior will get some paint to cover fresh welds to the lowered seat rails and shifter tunnel.




Will do oil prime/starter test (installed a new WOSP starter) before installing and finalizing position of intercooler.




Nervous wreck before starting... check.