I'm guessing you can't bolt a newer 3.6 turbo engine in an older 930 chassis .....

[Maxx1]

I've never seen a thread like that, but was thinking if it were possible, that would be an easier way to gain a lot of power without all the CIS tuning hassles or EFI conversion hassles. Too, the displacment increase is always welcome.

Has anyone ever tried a motor swap in their 930?

[RarlyL8]

JBL has a 993tt in his 930. I'm sure it is not simple as the passenger's side turbo is located in the same spot as the 930 oil sump tank. Then there is the wiring harness, tranny, computer, etc etc.
You can get as much power out of a modded 930 3.3L as the 993tt is only 400CHP stock. So to get huge power you have to mod it as well.
You have to choose where you want your "hassle factor".

[930gt-40r]

Yea, but none of our motors will ever be as smooth and driveable as that 993tt unless there is countless hours spent on tuning efi. Now a 3.6 turbo motor would be fun, but for the price there is not enough of a diffrence between our motors and a 3.6 turbo to justify the money.
And don't get me wrong, I would rather build my 3.3 motor with EFI any day of the week instead of spending $20K on 993TT motor.

[DDDD]

This is a great website. A great guy, but he is busy and probably would prefer not to get casual calls. He will build anything you want.

As you see he will put any normally aspirated 3.6 in your car, or 3.9 if you like, but the cost will be approaching 20 grand for a rebuilt one or maybe 12-14,000 for a 'turn key' engine. Why a normally aspirated engine? EFI and incredible throttle response are included.

He gave me quotes for turbo 3.6 engines which put out 500-700 hp with garrett turbos and you are straight into the 28-30 grand range for a re-built from scratch turbo or twin turbo 3.6 or 3.9. That would however scare you into wearing diapers when you step on the gas.

http://instant-g.com/index.html

[NathanUK]

3.3 to 3.6
It's only 10% more capacity, the other improvement is the digital timing, K27 and better IC. However, it seems a lot of money and effort for such a small power improvement although selling your stock engine would help.

[Reaper930]

DDDD,

If he's building 3.8tt's for $30k that's a hell of a bargin! For a reliable high hp 700 rwhp you're normally looking at at least $50k and that's just the motor. I was shopping around before I picked up my motor and right around $50k is where everyone was settled.

Concerning the 3.6 in a 930 chassis, I know there needs to be modified engine tin and a modified oil tank but other than reinstalling a wiring harness that's about it. A lot of work though.

One thing to think about is if you go to a motor with a hydraulic clutch instead of what the 930 currently has you'll have to upgrade to a hydraulic system. I'm having to do that on mine to get the Tilton 3 plate to work...but i'm sure there could always be the exception to still using a cable clutch depending on motor output and clutch selection.

[NathanUK]

I was thinking you would have to bolt on your exsisting flywheel and clutch assy to mate with the tranny... Doh!
I just realised you would need the 964t flywheel due to the triggering of the EZ unit. I have no idea if you could mount the exsisting clutch and PP to the 964t fly... It's getting complicated & $£$£$£

[Reaper930]

Exactly, and why Matteo used a 3.6 with a 964 or 993 tranny (G50 can't remember which one) and also replaced the entire floor pan to do so.

I'm not sure if you can use the stock stuff with the 3.6 motor but I wouldn't do it simply due to the fact that you'd need/want a hydraulic setup for the clutch unless you go the 935 route and have a very, very strong left leg. Those were huge hp motors with a cable clutch, but I don't think you'd want that on a street car.

[DDDD]

There is nothing particularily difficult about swapping engines or matching flywheels or anything, IF you know what you are doing in advance. Timmins does it every day.

He has a custom fabbed kits to do everything. He has special flywheels and clutches and oil tank replacment and even provisions for upgrading heat and AC if you desire.

And he skips the 3.8 and goes all the way to 3.9 on his builds.

To do it yourself would be extremely complicated BUT Timmins will sell you the fab kit and any parts you need to do it yourself!

So it is possible.

[DDDD]

Originally Posted by Reaper930

DDDD,

If he's building 3.8tt's for $30k that's a hell of a bargin! For a reliable high hp 700 rwhp you're normally looking at at least $50k and that's just the motor. I was shopping around before I picked up my motor and right around $50k is where everyone was settled.

Concerning the 3.6 in a 930 chassis, I know there needs to be modified engine tin and a modified oil tank but other than reinstalling a wiring harness that's about it. A lot of work though.

One thing to think about is if you go to a motor with a hydraulic clutch instead of what the 930 currently has you'll have to upgrade to a hydraulic system. I'm having to do that on mine to get the Tilton 3 plate to work...but i'm sure there could always be the exception to still using a cable clutch depending on motor output and clutch selection.

Starting from scratch, with Timmins supplying the engine, using all new parts, including the Garrett turbo AND custom intercooler, with DTA EFI and dyno tuning, removing your old engine and installing the new one.

His turn key quotes where something like:

3.6 turbo 28 grand
3.6 twin turbo 30 grand
3.9 turbo 32 grand
3.9 twin turbo 34 grand

Now this is a year ago and prices likely have gone up on parts.

[Maxx1]

Originally Posted by DDDD

There is nothing particularily difficult about swapping engines or matching flywheels or anything, IF you know what you are doing in advance. Timmins does it every day.

He has a custom fabbed kits to do everything. He has special flywheels and clutches and oil tank replacment and even provisions for upgrading heat and AC if you desire.

And he skips the 3.8 and goes all the way to 3.9 on his builds.

To do it yourself would be extremely complicated BUT Timmins will sell you the fab kit and any parts you need to do it yourself!

So it is possible.

That's good to know! If I ever blow my motor up, that would be a nice option.

Originally Posted by DDDD

Starting from scratch, with Timmins supplying the engine, using all new parts, including the Garrett turbo AND custom intercooler, with DTA EFI and dyno tuning, removing your old engine and installing the new one.

His turn key quotes where something like:

3.6 turbo 28 grand
3.6 twin turbo 30 grand
3.9 turbo 32 grand
3.9 twin turbo 34 grand

Now this is a year ago and prices likely have gone up on parts.

Uhh - ohhh

Looks like I better not blow my motor up anytime soon.

[Reaper930]

DDDD,

That's awesome! I was trying to figure out what I was going to do once I drive my 3.8 into the ground. 3.9 huh? Sex on wheels man.

Those are quite the deal for motor pricing, and like I said eariler, for nice high HP motors you usually pay quite a bit more...its nice to know someone can offer competitive pricing. I didn't intend my original remark to sound sarcastic, I really do think this type of pricing reflects what these motors should be going for.

BTW just for giggles has anyone seen how much the 900hp motors for the 996's go for? Try $75-80k!!!! Makes these motors a steal!

[DDDD]

Yeah, I knew you weren't being sarcastic at all. That is why I listed the prices.

You actually are helping influence my perspective because I was more like MAXX, thinking the engines are pretty pricey!

[JBL930]

As Rarly mentioned I have done it, to say it's a ball ache is the understatement of the year. Anything is doable if you have the patience but it certainly isn't the easy route.
One of the major bonuses is that there is a lot of available bolt on power upgrades for the 993tt platform, and it seams that reliable 500bhp is reasonably easy without a full tear down. I should have bought the Cargraphic 520bhp (RS Tuning) kit when i first bought the engine but i couldn't justify it at the time, i've spent about the same money trying to get it done other ways and it still isn't right yet. If i was to do it again i would make sure my budget covered everything that was needed before i started. Prices may be different in the US but you are looking at something like this

Engine £10.5k
Fitting and fabrication £8-9k
Cargraphic 520bhp kit £11.5k http://www.cargraphic.co.uk/index.php?/s,6,7,18,713,1290,1052/&start=3

So the best part of $60k is easily swallowed up, then you will also need to think about suspension, brakes, wheels, clutch/flywheel, gearbox etc etc. You'll have a nice light super quick car but it will come at a cost, and for this kind of money i'm sure you can get your 930 lump torn down and rebuilt by the best in the business with a full EFI and similar and more power, maybe even twin turbo! (the torque that twin turbos give is GREAT)
The thing is not to lie to yourself about how much things are going to cost, you start by doing unrealistic sums and end up spending double which leaves you feeling a bit light in the pocket!

I covered some of the progress on my build over on Rennlist, there are pages of useless stuff but you might find some of it interesting

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=401863&referrerid=40678

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=402882&referrerid=40678

[NathanUK]

I wouldn't get too excited about a 3.9 just yet. I may be wrong about that setup but usually with engines you can always go to the max with oversize pistons but there is usually a catch. If you fit large diameter pistons you end up with very little material between the cylinders. In a normal engine this makes them very weak and you actually get bore flex which then robs you of power. The thing I see with an aircooled 911 is a loss of cooling due to the fins being smaller.
So, I'm thinking a smaller engine can give as much hp as it can perform better.
I'm sure that higher quality materials could be used, but they could also be used on the smaller diamater stuff too.

As for stroking the crank, it's favourable to have a large bore compared to the stroke as you can end up with the engine being strangled due to having valves that are too small even though it's not possible to fit larger ones because of the size of the bore.

If I'm way off here please enlighten me! Maybe the 911 engine is different to what I would call 'normal' cars

[NathanUK]

Seems I could be right. Watercooled intercooler system on aircooled 911

Originally Posted by thechiller

I spoke with a locale porsche specialist representative of RUF in Norway, he recomended me:

- Cyllinder and piston kit 964 turbo, 3,3 liter with 7,5 in compression ratio. These cyllinders have better colling than the original 930. He means that on high power the 3,4 and 3,5 liters cyllinders are weaker and might crack when running 1,3- 1,4 bar boost.

- Recomenden to use 3,2 liter carrera cyllinder heads, because they have bigger ports in/out. using twin plugg was not needed, they have build engines taking out 748 rwhp on this setup.

- Camshaft was recomended to use the carrera 3,2 type

Advantage using the cyllinder kit and cyllinder heads was that the metal gasket kit did fit bolt on.

They used this type of setup un the RUF CTR

Does anyone have any comments on this?

Kjell

[jbailey930]

stephen aka porschephd put a 3.6tt in his yellow beast a few years back. Check with him at imagineauto.com for an update

[Dos Turbos]

Is this Porschephd`s old yellow beast?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AVRI&viewitem=&item=110294872296

[jbailey930]

Nooo, he turned his into a slant and not that yeller......