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EFI conversion on a 930 motor addition of BOV

I recently acquired an 84 911 with a 79 930 motor that has a 3LDZ turbo. It has the CIS setup. I am working towards building an EFI conversion with a fellow pelican's (jpnovak) guidance.

This is going to be a multiple stage project. First step, convert from CIS to EFI. Second, put a different more modern turbo with better boost curve and efficiency. Third, increase insurance policy. Fourth, upgrade suspension.

In building the efi with the thoughts of upgrading the turbo a question comes up.

What are you guys running for a BOV? I would like to utilize something that is easily attainable and reliable. I would also be interested in how the system is plumbed given I am keeping my a/c and more than likely going to a larger intercooler.

Thank you in advance.

John
Old 06-21-2010, 05:23 AM
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sudo apt-get purge 930
 
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I'm no expert but shouldn't you do all the upgrades at once? If you build your EFI maps for a 3LDZ and stock IC when you upgrade you'll have to rebuild the maps to the new stuff. You'll be doing the same work twice.

Experts, am I wrong???
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Old 06-21-2010, 06:05 AM
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at once

Quote:
Originally Posted by equality72521 View Post
I'm no expert but shouldn't you do all the upgrades at once? If you build your EFI maps for a 3LDZ and stock IC when you upgrade you'll have to rebuild the maps to the new stuff. You'll be doing the same work twice.

Experts, am I wrong???
That seems like a good point. If we can get all of our ducks lined up we may very well end up doing that. I kinda see that happening. Alot will depend on some variables like time and money. If I can get find some decent deals on some stuff on the turbo side (turbo, exhaust, etc) it may very well happen like that. I wanted to try to estblish some "tasks" to stick to so I don't end up with a car up on jackstands for months on end. I want to enjoy the car soon. I am hoping for late August or sooner for road worthyness. It's just so dog-gone hot here. I would like to to have all the engine stuff worked out by early fall for fun driving!

Thank you again for the point.
Old 06-21-2010, 06:24 AM
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Sounds like you need to determine if you are going to do the efi conversion on the stock 930 intake manifold or change to a carrera manifold. There certainly are more fitment issues with the Carrera manifold in terms of adapting onto the 930 heads as well at fitting the intercooler while keeping in mind you will have an a/c condensor.

Depending on the placement of your air temp probe you may or may not have to remap after upgrading the turbo or intercooler. Regardless, map changes will be minimal.

The Bosch C2 turbo/944 turbo BOV is economic and reliable, about $60.
Old 06-21-2010, 06:49 AM
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I'm gonna use a 3.2 Carrera manifold and tb.
Old 06-21-2010, 07:00 AM
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I would rather be driving
 
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John, I am going to chime in here. Remapping the motor is the easiest part of all of this conversion. Nothing but driving with barking orders from the passenger seat while using my fingers to operate the laptop. There are plenty of grades to simulate all the Steady-State conditions just like a dyno without the cost. I think there is a misconception regarding the tuning process. This is stepwise and methodical and there is no worry of damage if you follow a few simple guidelines. I will not tune this into a discussion of engine mapping. We can start a new thread if you need details.

Adapting to the Intake will be painless once we have the tapered insulator blocks made. I am running CAD as I type. The hardest part might be removing the long intake studs. But this is all just turning wrenches.

We are considering a boost controller for the EFI rather than a fully dependent BOV. I think the combination of the two will be best. Then we can map rpm dependent boost and possibly traction control if I can rig a speed sensor. Of course, I would like to hear opinions on proper setup.

I think I would like to see John run a stock intercooler with water/methanol injection. This is simple to trigger from the EFI. There would be no space issues with the AC. Yes, AC is important in TX. This would provide better charge cooling and less heat soak issues depending on the location of injection. The question is... Does the stock 930 intercooler bolt up to a 3.2 manifold? The 3.2 sits slightly higher and I am not sure the angle is too great in the downward direction to make a near 270 deg bend into the backside throttle location. I suppose we can cut off the rear end tank and make a new connection. I do need practice on my aluminum TIG skills.
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Last edited by jpnovak; 06-21-2010 at 07:42 AM..
Old 06-21-2010, 07:36 AM
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I am with Jamie on this...tweaking the maps is the easy part. I am sure Jamie is espousing the virtues of the new MS3, which means that once you have the base map, adjustments are a few keystrokes away. That said, you should really decide now what your ultimate power goal is to choose and accomodate your eventual turbo upgrade.

The GT35R seems to be the choice these days, but you'll want to consider flange differences and the fact these like equal length headers like RarlyL8s to accomodate twin scroll exhaust input. When ready, you can just ballpark tweak your fuel map by guesstimating the fuel bump in the table from the compressor map for extra margin, then tweak AFRs leaner back into stoich in real time.

I have also been intrigued by the Aerocharger VNT turbo for lower power needs when quick spoolup is desired. There are other options from Japanese cars like Mitsubishi and IHI, but those are not as plug and Play, so may be too 'unknown' for your aspirations.

I love water/meth injection as an add for your car. This is great insurance for hot climates and you can tweak MS3 to cut it in dependent on ambient temp to assist a stock IC when 90+ degree Texas temps make air/air ICs challenged. I figure that a common plenum turbo setup would work great with one nozzle, just post the TB. Dril, tap...done. Make sure you run a failsafe system though.

As far as the stock IC, any fitment issues should be easily solvable with a silicone hose or a TIG welded neck. Making a 3.2 manifold work has been done many times and Searching should uncover the answer. Definitely run an EMS managed boost controller, as you can make boost table dependent.

BTW, are twin plugs on the table? Compression bump? Cams?
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Last edited by kenikh; 06-21-2010 at 08:28 AM..
Old 06-21-2010, 08:25 AM
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I don't think budget will allow the twin plugs and cams. I'm afraid to ask...

We were talking about hp yesterday and I want to keep it very street-able and in the 450hp range. It seems to me when you get closer to the 500hp mark all domino's start to fall quickly.

Baby steps for me. I'm trying to digest all this info and it is crazy. I'll be doing some reading on the plane tomorrow for sure. It's like "Tybo" for the mind and my mind has been on the couch eating potato chips and drinking Dr.Pepper...
Old 06-21-2010, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundevil64 View Post
I don't think budget will allow the twin plugs and cams. I'm afraid to ask...
With Megasquirt, twin plugs just make sense, if you can swing a few hundred more bucks for the plug hole machine work. Since you will already have everything in place, assuming you are going crankfire, adding the extra plugs is simple. If you aren't planning on going crankfire, you can literally fund a crankfire EDIS ignition by selling your dizzy.

Also, cams aren't terribly challenging, since SC/3.2/964 cams are readily available inexpensively, too. I know it is a snowball effect, but if you really want 450HP, you really should consider these now. For example:
FS---SC cams
These are an easy regrind to 964, which provides about 550 HP of headrooom on a 930.
or
78SC Cams from a 50K mile engine
At $100, a cheap upgrade to SC cams from 930.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 06-21-2010, 09:05 AM
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sudo apt-get purge 930
 
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Kenik, funny, that the first link you posted to cams for sale is mine.
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Mark 1979 930 Euro ***GONE AND DON'T MISS IT AT ALL***

"Worrying about depreciation on your car and keeping mileage down is like not ****ing your girlfriend so her next boyfriend finds her more appealing"
--clutch-monkey
Old 06-21-2010, 10:38 AM
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3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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Didn't even notice! LOL.
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:51 AM
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I would rather be driving
 
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Kenik the plan is not to go inside the motor until necessary. yes, cams are easy to do but this is not within the scope of the project right now. This car begs to be on the road ASAP.

having discussed this with the owner a few times smooth power delivery and reliability are key rather than an absolute number.

There is a MS2 in a box waiting. MS3 are currently sold out. That is an easy upgrade once we get to that point. Besides with the extra code, dual tables, and 16x16 fuel bins we will not have any problems with fuel trim resolution.
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71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine
classicautowerks.com - EFI conversion parts
Old 06-21-2010, 11:54 AM
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Welcome to the Darkside John! Keep us posted on the build....You're in good hands!
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Old 06-21-2010, 03:42 PM
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it is funny how nervous people get when they hear "retune". I run MS2 EDIS6 and it's great. If you are using a carrera intake and plan on keeping the stock, or K27, turbo you may want to consider my double stacked stock intercooler. It is basically two stock coolers stacked together and the outlet is plumbed to fit the carrera throttlebody in it's stock location. We made intake adapters to fit the carrera intake to my 930 motor as well, they worked out great.

Here is the EDIS


Intake ports


Intercooler


Old 06-21-2010, 04:16 PM
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BTW, it's set up for a 50mm BOV (included) and an 1/8" bung for meth injection. If you're interested in the intercooler shoot me a PM
Old 06-21-2010, 04:18 PM
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As to BOV's the stock plastic BOV from Bosch as used on the 91-4 C2 Turbo is sufficient. They cost about $45 each I would guess and are about 1". You could put two on if you wanted.

However, I would consider a Synapse Engineering BOV. Them make a 1.5" and it is in a class of its own as to function. It can improve your turbo spool time.

The best place for a BOV is as close to the throttle plate as possible so that would be after the intercooler and before the throttle plate. However, there is no reason to not put it between the turbo and intercooler and many find this easer to accomplish.

The other side of the BOV is if you run a MAP style injection it can just vent to atmosphere.

If you do something like a MAF that meters the air quantity before it enters the turbo, you would want to have the BOV deliver its blow by back to a point after the MAF sensor and before the turbo.

Tial makes great BOV's to.

Get comfortable with the search function here. There is a couple of threads on intercoolers or intercooler cores that show great pictures of plumbing a Carrera intake EFI motor.

One suggestion. If you keep you cams, and I think the stock cam is a good TQ cam, you would benifit from opening up the intake ports.
Old 06-21-2010, 04:21 PM
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