How do I get a 930 to handle like a 911?

[gumba]

I've got a set of Fuchs 3 pc 8x17 & 11x17 wheels and Goodyear 245/35/17 fronts, 315/35/17 rear F1 GS-D3 tires off my turbo I'm selling if your interested. Roonuts : Categories: Wheels & Tires

[PorscheGAL]

Originally Posted by gumba

I've got a set of Fuchs 3 pc 8x17 & 11x17 wheels and Goodyear 245/35/17 fronts, 315/35/17 rear F1 GS-D3 tires off my turbo I'm selling if your interested. Roonuts : Categories: Wheels & Tires

I tried to find those tires, but the 315s are on back-order until January. I've already ordered the Toyo R888s. Thanks for the offer.

[Flieger]

What is your budget? What kind of handling do you like? (quick and light I would think) What kind of bump isolation do you need?

Lots of goodies here, from the simple A-arm bushings to raised spindles, 935 suspension, coil-over springs, etc.

Suspension1

[DDDD]

Originally Posted by PorscheGAL

I tried to find those tires, but the 315s are on back-order until January. I've already ordered the Toyo R888s. Thanks for the offer.

Dave at TRE motorsports might be a good one to talk to about your shocks. Even bilstein heavy duty shocks are rumoured to have better dampening than bilstein sport shocks.

He also knows about setting up 911 versus 930s.

Do you know any top notch shops in your area that will do alignments and corner balancing? It sounds like you do some work yourself?

[PorscheGAL]

Originally Posted by Flieger

What is your budget? What kind of handling do you like? (quick and light I would think) What kind of bump isolation do you need?
Lots of goodies here, from the simple A-arm bushings to raised spindles, 935 suspension, coil-over springs, etc.

Suspension1

Right now, I have no idea what bump isolation is. I need to look up what bump isolation means. Sorry, I'm still learning.

Quick and light sounds good and I like Rebel racing. The only reason I mentioned Elephant Racing is Elephant has that simple spreadsheet of products that they generate based where you drive. i.e track, street.

I'm not worried about budget or the prices of Rebel racing or Elephant.

Originally Posted by DDDD

Dave at TRE motorsports might be a good one to talk to about your shocks. Even bilstein heavy duty shocks are rumoured to have better dampening than bilstein sport shocks.

He also knows about setting up 911 versus 930s.

Do you know any top notch shops in your area that will do alignments and corner balancing? It sounds like you do some work yourself?

TRE is a long way from South Carolina, but I wish they were closer. I have to go to Charlotte or Atlanta for alignment. Yes, we do the work ourselves on most projects. I'm not sure without a lift, if we could do the suspension. I want to collect the parts and then take it someone like Zuffenhaus in Charlotte to put it on and then align it.

I would have a lift, but our garage sits on a 4 percent decline. Don't feel safe with that.

[Flieger]

By bump isolation I meant how much you feel bumps going over bad pavement. If you have smooth roads or don't mind feeling every line on the road, you can go for stiffer torsion bars and dampers. The bearings like Rebel Racing bearings do not add "harshness" on their own, because they remove a lot of friction from the system and allow the torsion bars and dampers to do their job smoothly without binding. They actually make the torsion bars effectively a bit softer.

[David]

I wonder if it can be done. They really feel like completely different cars to me and not just the same body with slightly different suspension geometry.

[jwasbury]

[QUOTE=PorscheGAL;5679966]I'm not sure without a lift, if we could do the suspension.[QUOTE]

You can do it without a lift. I just went through this and basically did Elephant's street performance 2 package. I changed everything except for the sway bars which remain stock. 22/29 torsion bars, polybronze bushings all around, off the shelf bilstein sports.

A dirty, pain in the @$$ job, but doable in the garage with hand tools. Took the car to a shop for the alignment and corner balance.

I'm very happy with the set up.

[Tilikum Turbo]

Another thing to consider...I made my 911SC into a 911 Turbo, via a 1986 930 engine(and a whole lot of green).

When I think back of how it USED to handle, and how it drives now, it's a totally different animal. As you say, brutally fast, yet as Thomas Wolf stated "you can't go back home", or something to that degree. I don't believe I'll ever get my 911 to now handle like a 911 again since the transformation. I just can't imagine getting a 930 to hustle around corners like a much better balanced 'normal' 911, anymore than you can get a normal 911 to hustle around a corner like a Miata, regardless of how much $$$ you plunk down(unless your building a track-car that will be driven on a pool-table surface. I don't know about you, but I drive my car all year around in the real world.


The 912 was praised upon how balanced it handled(and of course it was a 911 with a 4-banger). When Mercedes went from a 3.0L to a 3.2L between 1992-1993, even it's handling suffered with just .2L increase(sans turbo/intercooler/extra plumbing, etc.)

My thinking is, this will be an expensive lesson in futility without a MASSIVE reduction in weight behind the rear axle.

My 2-cents...

[DDDD]

Yes, it is the lesson in futility part that we want you to avoid.

There are some ways to make it a great handling 930 however...

[zakthor]

Thinking aloud: could throttle response be part of the difference? Gear ratios?

[patkeefe]

Why would an SC with a 930 powerplant handle differently than an SC? Just ditch some cantilevered weight. The only difference is that it is capable of transferring weight faster now. Mine handles the same as it did before it had a turbo.

[PorscheGAL]

[QUOTE=jwasbury;5681007][QUOTE=PorscheGAL;5679966]I'm not sure without a lift, if we could do the suspension.

You can do it without a lift. I just went through this and basically did Elephant's street performance 2 package. I changed everything except for the sway bars which remain stock. 22/29 torsion bars, polybronze bushings all around, off the shelf bilstein sports.
.

I read your thread and that is when I started planning for the suspension upgrade. Your garage floor looks flat; mine is not. Also, I would have to drive or transported 2 hours to get my alignment done. even if I did the work myself. The Porsche dealer and other shops cannot align my car(s). I don't feel good about driving the car that far without alignment.

Didn't you make a comment in your thread about your 930 hanging with a friend's 911 when cornering?

Originally Posted by zakthor

Thinking aloud: could throttle response be part of the difference? Gear ratios?

yes, but I've tried to study those differences when driving and the 911 is unique in cornering against the 930. Maybe they are working in all instances to make the 911 more nimble?

Originally Posted by patkeefe

Why would an SC with a 930 powerplant handle differently than an SC? Just ditch some cantilevered weight. The only difference is that it is capable of transferring weight faster now. Mine handles the same as it did before it had a turbo.

I have always wondered if that was true! I bet that is fun to drive

[jwasbury]

Originally Posted by PorscheGAL

I read your thread and that is when I started planning for the suspension upgrade. Your garage floor looks flat; mine is not. Also, I would have to drive or transported 2 hours to get my alignment done. even if I did the work myself. The Porsche dealer and other shops cannot align my car(s). I don't feel good about driving the car that far without alignment.

Didn't you make a comment in your thread about your 930 hanging with a friend's 911 when cornering?

How "un-level" is that garage floor? I did the suspension one end at a time. Raised the rear on stands and completed removal and installation of new parts, put the rear down and moved on the the front. If you can jack either end of your car up in your garage, I'd think you can do the necessary work. I roughed in the ride height, but did next to nothing for the alignment. It was a 20-30minute snooze cruise to the shop, and the car felt fine. The only thing I made sure of was to match the new tie rods up with the old as far as adjustment. That way you know the steering won't be totally wacked out. If you're more careful (and anal) than I was, you could mark the exact position of the ecentric toe and camber adjustment bolts on the rear and the position of the spring plate on the trailing arm (use a sharpie). Then when you reassemble, put these pieces back as you found them and you probably won't be far off on alignment.

My buddy with the 911 made a comment about how before my suspension refresh it was easy for him to follow me (even with only 1 hand on the wheel) and after he needed "both hands"

[Tilikum Turbo]

Originally Posted by patkeefe

Why would an SC with a 930 powerplant handle differently than an SC? Just ditch some cantilevered weight. The only difference is that it is capable of transferring weight faster now. Mine handles the same as it did before it had a turbo.

The ONLY way a 911SC would handle as it did before a turbo would to turbocharge the original 3.0L, with no intercooler, etc(which is a minimal addition of weight). I didn't go that route since the original 3.0L in my car was not designed from the factory for forced induction, so I just shelled out the $$$ for the real deal, a 930 engine.

The factory 3.3L Turbo engine was significantly heavier than the factory 3.0L normally aspirated engine. If the engine were in FRONT of the rear wheels(as in mid-engined), this would be desirable.

The best handling cars typically have as MUCH mass within the wheel-base, not at opposite ends(and the 911 design has a huge lump hanging off that rear-end outside the wheel base).

Coming back from Canada, I loaded up a ton of oak/cherry wood in the nose of my 911, and proceeded back to LA. One might think that this would nicely balance out the rear weight on the back....not so. At triple digit speeds, the car was becoming very scary at triple-digit speeds in the corners/banking trying to launch me into the scenery.

If anyone has the stats on a normal weight of a 3.0L engine versus a 3.3 Turbo engine, I would like to know, but I am betting somewhere on the order of 1 to 1.5 bags of concrete(100lbs/bag) difference between the two engines. Sure made a big difference between my old 911 and the same 911 now with a 3.3

[patkeefe]

I did turbo the 3.0 in the SC. So, you hang some extra weight off the rear with the turbo, but I subtracted a lot by ditching the AC, smog pump, etc. The rear rubber bumperettes weigh 8 pounds each. I have a water injection system, and no air side intercooler. I doubt the engine weight difference between 3.3 turbo and 3.0 na is 100-150 lbs, but I could be wrong. I too would like to know exactly what the difference is.

My SC weighs 2570 lb, with a roll bar. It has really good corner balance (I forgot the numbers at this moment), but it is balanced for braking bias. It is a street car which I track.

When I first bought the car, I ripped out all of the suspension and rebuilt it. Everything. That was the biggest difference in handling. 21/27 bars, stock sway bars, Elephant polybronze in the front, turbo tie rod ends, rebuilt steering rack, new rear bushings, new sway bar bushings, Bilstein Sports all around. The SC has always handled well since this refresh.

Back to Steph's original question...a 930 IS a 911. A bit wider, better brakes, essentially the same car. Porsche didn't make this an inferior handling package from the factory; it was likely every bit as good if not better. You need to refresh the suspension package. Handling is the single virtue of the 911/930, in fact, all Porsches. My Boxster and 968 are both great handling cars, but neither has the beastly go fast handling ability of the 911.

[911st]

I am just guessing--

The 3.3 turbo 930 has the motor mounted about 1.5" more rear-wards. That probably has as much to do with its greater rear-wards bias as anything. It also has a heaver transmission and typically a LSD that can fight the car in a turn.

Put it in an SC behind a 915 transmission and it should be in the same place as the SC's.

The 3.0SC and 3.3 turbo motors mostly differ as to the weight of a turbo its self and the addition of an intercooler. Put a set of headers and straight through muffler on the 3.3 turbo motor and they are probably going to be close to the same weight.

Of course it probably dose not help at slow speeds having the extra 35 lbs from the spoiler hanging out back.

Being nimble probably has more to do with tire side wall profile / construction and alignment when comparing a 3.3 turbo body car to a narrow body car.

The other is the NA motor is usually much more responsive and has better gears making it easer to throttle steer it in a corner.

The 930 out of the box has a better geometry with lesser bump steer up front, more anti dive as the rear of the rear A arms are about 1/2 inch higher, and it has a higher roll center which lets it handle flatter with almost the same suspension wheel rates. It also has a little better camber curve in the front and a more aggressive camber curve in the rear. Plus the wide wheel base improves the angle of the center of gravity to the wheel contact patch.

Thus, it has the potential to out perform a narrow body if set up well.

[patkeefe]

K-
I did not realize the engine was back 1-1/2" in a 930. Do you know why this is? A function of the transaxle length?

In my case, the 3.0 had stock 8.5:1 Mahle pistons in it, so I had basically the same throttle response before and after the turbo. I just have more throttle to respond now

I agree the 930 will outperform a narrow body. I have seen some fast and nimble 930's at the track.

[911st]

Going from the 3.0 turbo to the 3.3 they lengthened the bell housing to put in a bigger clutch.

Again, there are a bunch of other changes between the suspension's. I forgot the turbo comes with...... turbo tie rods from the factory!

[patkeefe]

What did they change to accommodate the width of the car?