3.3 Turbo CIS to EFI-What else I need?

[balleta]

Originally Posted by proffighter

Why not get all the benefits out of ignition? Throw that dizzy away (or at least leave it on the shelf) and get full programmable ignition as for example SDS offers?

Originally Posted by gsmith660

Also to consider while you are in there is updating fuel system and go to MS 3 and tune also for E-85 just a thought

The decision between MS3 or SDS is a matter of $$ but will be one of them. The question for a cam sensor in place of the dizzy is a matter of simplicity. Just throw it in and adjust. Also, for other cars it is not expensive. See example below:

[gsmith660]

Definitely MS3 over SDS simply because of the tuning with a laptop vs a 4 line screen

[proffighter]

Originally Posted by gsmith660

Definitely MS3 over SDS simply because of the tuning with a laptop vs a 4 line screen

...and what's the advantage here?

You can tune SDS on the fly and see everytime what value (every single one from temp to ignition, 4 at once) is acting right now and have a tuning knob, which gives you the possibility to add or reduce fuel while running/driving to see what happen (lean/rich) before programming.

Ok, no colorful screen with tables, but there is really no need for. Everyone who has worked with SDS, was excited how nice it's to tune.

So please, if you don't have used them both, don't prejudge. I think both have their right, it's a matter of taste and preferences

[balleta]

I'm studying both and what I see is that with MS3 you have more room for fine tuning. But SDS is simpler to tune. Anyway only those who have work with them have the real experience.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[proffighter]

Originally Posted by balleta

I'm studying both and what I see is that with MS3 you have more room for fine tuning. But SDS is simpler to tune. Anyway only those who have work with them have the real experience.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

As far as I know MS3 uses 16x16 tables. SDS offers steps of every 250rpm (total 37) and every 0.9psi (total 63), so not finer but bigger steps for MS3 in my eyes for both, rpm and MAP. same to Temp steps, SDS offers 31steps here.

What should be the advantage of 0.1° ignition choice if rpm and MAP steps aren't that fine?

[Lapkritis]

6yr Megasquirt veteran, self built and tuned checking in here. If you're comparing SDS to MS3 the answer should be obvious. Heck, even compare SDS to MS1 or MS2 and it's a no-brainer. Then only application where SDS would make sense is if your builder / tuner used exclusively SDS. Ms2 and Ms3 extra code variants are ridiculously advanced. Learn about table switching functions as well as the algorithm around load blending in MS and there is no question. If you don't want to intrude on the cabin wiring you can use Bluetooth to communicate with the MS ecu and wire it only in the bay. Need I go on?

[drmatera]

Does SDS have full datalog capability?
Can it auto correct your VE while driving based on a 16 x 16 AFR table?
Can you adjust the 250rpm steps?
MS allows you to choose the data points which is great for aligning them with your engines unique power band.
Another fine feature of MS is that while viewing the datalog in your living room you can tweak the VE table accordingly. But since the VE Analizer is so capable I don't see the need.

One downfall for MS is the DIY nature of it. There is a steep learning curve for the first timer in setting everything up. Although someone with the same firmware could easily email you their base tune which would have you up and running with in seconds

I have no hands on experience with SDS, just asking..

[drmatera]

plus what lapkritis just said

[gsmith660]

Wow so harsh, I can if I want to, that said I looked at both lets see a screen that would have to squint to see or a nice big 17.5 inch screen with VE tuning live I would say thats tuning on the fly also. So whats your point?

Originally Posted by proffighter

...and what's the advantage here?

You can tune SDS on the fly and see everytime what value (every single one from temp to ignition, 4 at once) is acting right now and have a tuning knob, which gives you the possibility to add or reduce fuel while running/driving to see what happen (lean/rich) before programming.

Ok, no colorful screen with tables, but there is really no need for. Everyone who has worked with SDS, was excited how nice it's to tune.

So please, if you don't have used them both, don't prejudge. I think both have their right, it's a matter of taste and preferences

[xbmwguy]

speaking of bluetooth, i was tuning my car 20 feet away sippin a cold one with my feet up.... just sayin

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by xbmwguy

speaking of bluetooth, i was tuning my car 20 feet away sippin a cold one with my feet up.... just sayin

It's a whole new level... add a GPS smart phone with shadow logger and you can track your lap times speeds at different points and see where you need work.

Bluetooth... you can have a tuner in a chase vehicle. No tuner local to you? Gotomypc.com with a mobile hotspot and they're tuning while you drive from across the planet. SDS is rotary dial to telephones as megasquirt is to cell phones... constantly developed and upgraded for new capabilities. The rotary phone still technically works but there is so much more capability out there.

-Andrew

[jsveb]

Originally Posted by xbmwguy

speaking of bluetooth, i was tuning my car 20 feet away sippin a cold one with my feet up.... just sayin

Just becareful with that tuning while sipping. I have seen your posts after doing that

Regarding SDS VS MS: I also think is is a matter of taste. I have got none of it. Well, except for a complete MS just waiting install...

I do see some really nice results with SDS.

It is a completely different user interphase, that appeals to a different group of people.

From what I have READ I think no matter what you chose it will enable you to achieve your goals

So basically it is a matter of taste.

Do you prefer super simple user interphase? SDS
OR, do you prefer a more complex DIY package that requires some more user knowledge for tuning, but which has got quite a crowd, including here on PP.

Edit: I just read what I wrote, guess what I'll have "meself" a Rye from own stills. - see sig

[Tippy]

Not to sound mean but running EFI without fully programmable ignition is silly.

[proffighter]

Originally Posted by tippy

not to sound mean but running efi without fully programmable ignition is silly.

1+

[proffighter]

Originally Posted by gsmith660

Wow so harsh, I can if I want to, that said I looked at both lets see a screen that would have to squint to see or a nice big 17.5 inch screen with VE tuning live I would say thats tuning on the fly also. So whats your point?

Did I sound harsh? If so, I am sorry, was not my goal...

GPS, Bluetooth, etc... are nice features, if you need or like them... But no profit for the engine or tuning quality

I don't want to say any system is better or not, just that SDS offers anything you need for a good solid engine managment nothing more.

BTW. AFR logging only, but hey, as most of us using a Lambda Meter anyway, no need to logg data twice (for me at least). So my Zeitronix loggs everything I need

Conclusion: There are pro's and con's as everywhere, choose what's best for your needs

[xbmwguy]

as darrin posted and others ms can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. i have done over 95% of my own tuning for an outcome of over 500 rwp. that being said i have learned what is REALLY going on in my motor and by progressing in baby steps have a much better understanding of inputs to outcome, or to coin a great phrase for anyone tuning garbage in = garbage out.now go start your efi journey, it will be both gratifying and painfull.....i promise

[drmatera]

LOL, that last statement says it all

[balleta]

Originally Posted by xbmwguy

...it will be both gratifying and painfull.....i promise

Faces in the processs
That's priceless...

[sjf911]

I started with MS2 in an NA configuration with an EDIS ignition setup (twin plug). Very clean and relatively simple. The only major problem I had with that was a poor crimp on the VR sensor connector that caused the car to cutout once in a while. I had minor issues with idle control using the GM stepper. I even converted to turbo with this setup. When MS3 came out, the switch over was easy, no major wiring changes as MS3X was not available, just tuning the new expanded tables. When MS3X became available, it required a substantial redo of the wiring so I used that time to add a cam sensor and ditch the EDIS in favor of a stand alone VR sensor on an upgraded 60-2 toothed wheel and conversion to LS2 D585 coils in a fully sequential format. I also switched over to the OEM 3.2L PWM idle control valve which improved my idle predictability and added a J&S knock box. I am now in the process of adding an expansion box (IOx) with even more wiring as it adds GPS, 3-axis accelerometer, and a large number of new sensor inputs. Also, I now have direct closed loop electronic boost control with external boost level adjustment and gear specific boost as well as direct water/meth injection control. MS gives you this kind of flexibility from relatively simple to almost overwhelmingly complicated and everything in between.

[balleta]

Originally Posted by balleta

...cam sensor in place of the dizzy is a matter of simplicity. Just throw it in and adjust. Also, for other cars, like Ford it is not expensive. See example below:

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