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How high can boost go with my new setup?
I am putting on a 3.3 intake manifold, diverter valve housing and 3.3 Intercooler on my non IC Euro 3.0ltr 930
Currently i am running a 0.8 spring n a 46mm Tial WG, I use 100 ocatne fuel and nothing else How high can i go now ive researched this and i dont really know for my particular configuration. Im thinking i can put in my second spring of 0.4 bar to give total boost value of 1.2 bar which will be ok to occasionally run And 1.0 bar will be my new safe daily driving boost level (my new Factory boost level) if you will.---:confused: |
I'd get a boost controller and use the .8bar spring for everyday use. From what I've learned, 1.2bar with your compression ratio and intercooling plus premuim fuel is safe-ish.
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Honestly you can 1.2-1.3 all day long on premium fuel. The key would be to make sure your fuel system is keeping up and able to maintain a good AFR through the powerband. I would recommend you get a wideband O2 sensor to monitor your AFR's. 11.0-11.3 is a good target for pump gas.
When I say "keeping up" - I would search on the forum about fuel tuning the WUR so you can trim the fuel supply under load. Getting the fuel system right is the key here. Chris. |
If you truly wish to find max safe boost you must test with tools that can detect detonation, CHT, and AFR for starters. Boost it till it pings at safe AFR then back it off and lock it in. I see no use for street vs sport mode, if you have it safe use it.
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So it needs to be a gut feeling a guesstimate to what max safe is then ill bring it back a bar or two, need to find this based on others like yourself experiences, fuel types, histories and comparisms. but before i jump n with my gut going just by numbers and the compression ratio of these early engines would you agree if a factory car is safe at 0.8 would be safe to run boost to say 0.9.? As im sure when they left the factory they erred on the side of caution as with everything. Also keep in mind MR Ing was well known for posting conservative performance numbers where other sports cars manufacturers went more on the optimistic side, So lets say the factory early Euro 930 can run 0.9 boost safely all day. With modsfrom later model 930's as outlined 1.0 bar must be assumed it is completely safe to run all day? id argue a 0.2/3 bar increase achievable with the better breathing of the 3.3 intake, cooling of an intercooler that wasnt there before and whatever the diverter valve part does does, The Euro car comes with factory 1.5 boost guage and if Ferry thought that occasionally these cars can be capable of that boost amount well thats cool but how does the average joe blow make use of that 1.5 boost guage without kinking a diapharam or dialing too much in with an af dialler by mistake? Trouble there is little information ive found on boost levels of the 1.5 bar boost cars, why have a 1.5 boost guage if they could never run to that was it purely cosmetic? If you have 2 cars of the same 245hp and 260hp. up to 1977 In 1978 the 3.3 US were only 5hp more than the Euro 1977 3.0 US ROW 246 260 3.0 litre 1977 265 300 3.3 litre 1978 Im just shooting numbers, Are the engine difference so big that getting a non IC Euro car to have the same or close HP to the later cars is too difficult without fear of exploding, I think (based on some experience) that the 1.5 bar boost cars can handle much higher levels, remember last year? i kinked my diapharam or something and i was boosting to 1.5 well it was maxxing out the guage before i caught it ive had the plugs and oil out since and other than a few blown hoses the engine is quite ok.. which lends another thought.. SO By history do Engines Detonate/explode before Vacuum hoses blow?, If so WHY? Engines that have detonated in the past did they have Factory hoses or Aftermarket high pressure a and N hoses or similar on them?? i ask this because an engine block is made of steel and bits , vacuum hoses are mostly flexible rubber are greasy and slippery.. so if the said car reached its level of compression why didnt the hoses blow off? and there you go no harm no foul? I could never get how engines just blow up with all the rubber fittings and hoseclips. Or perhaps only engines with aftermarket high end fittings detonate? and not cars with factory vacuum hoses? worth a thought. Anyway its breakfast time have a nice day people :p |
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My Budget is $0, im selling off older parts off my engine to pay for all the newer mods, so far im under budget :) Ive ctually got the WUR out atm , is there anything i can do to it while its out? |
Pushing limits by your gut is not very sensible. Get a gauge and any other "tools" recommend otherwise it's going to cost a lot more than you really wanted to spend. Better safe than sorry.
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The 1.5 bar boost gage is a bragging rights toy. The stock CIS on the 3.0L engines is not capable of supporting anything more than stock boost levels. The fist thing you must do is use the 3.3L CIS and even then it may need tweaking.
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Put on a bigger intercooler and you should be able to run 1.2bar or maybe more in short bursts with your 100 octane gas if the CIS isn't going lean up top. If it is going lean and the usual CIS modifications don't help enough you can put on a methanol injection kit that starts spraying around .9bar
Here in Florida the boat builder supply shops sell Methanol for around $40 for a 5 gallon can so you can probably get it where you are too. If you have the older cast iron fuel head that was originally made for a Mercede 4.5 liter V8 and it has 2 plugs screwed in where 2 more injector lines could go you could plumb in a 7th electronic injector before the throttle body to to one of them and use an aftermarket injector controller to open it. Maybe the cold start injecotor under the throttle body would work for that. I googled Blue Mountains NSW and it looks like beautiful country. I imagine there's a lot of nice curvy hilly mountain roads to drive. Here in s. florida the roads are flat and boring and cluttered with traffic. The beaches and ocean are nice though and if you like swamps and alligators while being eaten up by mosquitos we got that too. |
RarlyL8, I thought the 3.0 cars had bigger fuel systems from the factory than the 3.3 cars i.e. euro spec
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My car at 1bar is still in low 11's afr.
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Yes I too would think that 6.5:1 C/R with intercooler and 100 octane fuel could support 1.2bar no problem, however I suspect the stock 3.0L CIS would lean out on top.
The fuel system on the 3.0L engines has the capacity to support a lot more HP than stock, however it is adjusted/set for 245/265HP. The settings are on the rich side so you can pump it up a bit before exceeding a safe mixture up top. How high I don't know. To go into no-mans land (beyond 1.0bar) will likely require a later model WUR, and even that may need to be modified. You just won't know until you get some gages on and measure. Also remember that higher octane fuel burns hotter, a stock 3.3L intercooler may prove inadequate as well depending on how the car is used/driven. A bigger oil cooler couldn't hurt. All these things are considerations, I've never ran a 3.0L on 100 octane fuel at 1.2bar so can only guess what limitations would pop up. |
Well im more than happy to have my limit around 1.0 bar if thats about the safe limit with my mods without doing tech stuff that takes more skill that i have
Thats still a noticeable increase over stock, Ive read that for each 0.1 bar = 10hp if correct ill safely gain 20hp, that with my 915 which with the short gearing = 40 or 50hp difference, over 4 speed, With my light car the 340hp with no money spent and (small profit made by replacing with later model mods) will suit me fine When you say pump it up i assume your talking about adjusting the mix via WUR with a 2mm allen key? ive got a .7 a .8 and a .4 bar spring ill put the .7 and .4 together so ill be running 1.1 and use that as my maximum boost until dare i say it ill start going down that awful slippery slope a bit more. theres a boost controller in my centre console its disconnected ill prob keep t that way, so i dont ever have the urge to turn it up to show off.. whats the Deal with the Mercedes v8 fuel head? was that a common upgrade in the past to get more fuel or something? And the injectors i think i asked this, is iti mperative that the lines be in any order or it doesnt matter? cos ive got lines and nuts and bits all over the place, rule 1 keep it organised as if lol just remembered re intake manifold..would it be a good idea if i honed it out while its out with my dremel? would it make any difference?, I had a bit of carbon build up around my manifold spacers so i cleaned them all out, painted too in hammered blue came out noice. |
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Ive got 2 oil coolers in the car already, i have a Big Brass Tubed one up front im trying to decide what color to finish it, even wrap it in alfoil so it reflects heat, or just paint it matt black also have a beru oil cooler near the block, When ihave my spark plug leads on correctly ( i just found out i had 4 and 6 backwards for the last few months and to think i thought it was running great , well normally eng temp sits on 90 celcius i think thats 200f when i drove to Adelaide which was 1400 kays the temp stayed steady on that even when driving through the hay plains desert which was pretty hot. So ive got a cool running engine, with the ic will be even cooler, maybe even too cool while cruising possibly |
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got this pic off net but next time car on road ill get some nice pics http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1392434722.jpg |
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notice on the maf theres two unused injector plugs I guess thats not stock then or did porsche get them from mercedes? http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1392434983.jpg |
Porsche and Mercedes source from Bosch as well as many other makers. They both used the same unit that was available from Bosch.
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Rob, please don't take offence, as I am not trying to dog you, but you would be well advised to stick with stock boost until you have learned more about the Porsche turbocharging system (how the components work, how to increase fueling, what detonation is and what it can quickly do to an engine with air cooled heads, and so forth). I realize you are learning by posting and asking questions, but so far, you do not quite understand the basics.
For example, adding an intercooler is not going to lower oil temps, and in fact, can increase them as it is somewhat of a restriction to cylinder head air flow (not much of one, of course) - it will lower the charge air temperature, however, which is a good step towards helping eliminate/lesson detonation. Also, "detonation" is not the engine "blowing up" as you put it, and has nothing to do with blowing off vacuum hoses. Detonation is uncontrolled ignition in the combustion chamber and can be caused by many things (not enough fueling, improper ignition timing, too much compression due to too high boost, excessive heat, poor fuel, and others). And having a proper exhaust, air-to-fuel ratio does not guarantee that the engine will not experience detonation if any number of other factors are present (too high compression and the like). The condition of the plugs and oil are not "fail safe" ways to tell if an engine has been damaged due to detonation - piston rings can be broken, as many on this board have experienced, and the thing still seems to run and drive perfectly (poor leak-down test results, and noticing serious blow-by gasses in the oil tank, are indicators) Like someone above has already mentioned, going about this by the seat of your pants could get very expensive in short order. Here are some threads that have taught me a lot over the years (and still do) - http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/461279-advanced-cis-turbo-tuning-discussion-thread-ultimate.html http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/482246-electronic-cis-fueling-boost-control.html http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/734048-another-bl-adjustable-wur-thread.html |
Rob, another thing I want to mention is this whole process will go more smoothly for you if you take the time to learn, and then use, the proper names for the various turbocharging and fuel injection components.
For example, you keep referring to the fuel head's air metering assembly as a MAF, and like other people have pointed out, the Bosch K-Jetronic/CIS fuel injection system does not utilize a MAF (MAF = mass air flow sensor - one kind is a tube/chamber with a thin, heated wire strung across it that registers voltage changes due to temperature changes created by more or less air flowing over it). The Bosch air metering disc/arm used on the turbo moves downward as air is drawn over it (against hydraulic resistance in the fuel head) - no relation to a MAF. |
Appreciate your view Ronnie i know its coming from experience,
But im the type of person that can read all day from a book and not learn a thing, thats why i find the forums so valuable, as they are immediate issues at hand and the best learning for me is from a collective where there are many different solutions each of which has worked from that particular persons experience of view passing on information that will give solutions to the problem at hand, Ive bought many books on the 911 and 930 big fat mechanic and service books but i only have interest in the pages with the colour photos :) I know the car will be completely trouble free and reliable with a 1.1 boost spring after my changes, as it was trouble free and still reliable when it was boosting beyond 1.2 1.3 1.4 etc last year, and my current planned changes are minimal and can be done without knowledge of the workings of the said parts. With my new IC , manifold from a 3.3 shell be absolutely fine, don't forget I'm running 100 octane have 2 oil coolers, plus its a Euro Engine, 1.1 bar boost is nothing! Just because you need to know everything and learn about inner workings doesn't mean that others have to follow suit and study i hope can understand that ? can't you?? Geez if we all went off and learnt about mafs and afr's there would be no more Technical forum now would there? I think this Technical is not the place for knowledgeable types with chips on their shoulders , You were dum once too remember, so i guess you went off and read up on everything on 930's do you know how many fingers im holding up? you dont? you should go and read a book on Psychological workings of the mind i think before you post remarks like that Read a book ???? Friggin Unbelievable, why don't you read a book on how to speak to people without Pissing them off? However I DID just read that some people from US don't have the knowledge to think before they post. Are you still in the dark on this subject? Well its because you didn't read up about it Answer is TWO :mad: |
Rob, I honestly do not understand at all what your problem is.
I put a lot of thought into my post and it contained many useful tips on how to go about considering adding additional boost to yours, or any engine. In addition, I provided a basic definition/description of detonation. In other words, I supplied you with useful information, much of which I have gained from the members of this forum, and I did so in a respectful and non-offensive manner. How is learning how something works a bad thing - what do you think a technical forum is for? You really lost me with that one. I don't recall telling you to go read a book, and those links I provided are past threads where the very questions you have asked about are discussed in length. How you can view what I wrote as some sort of attack is beyond me, but of course, I did anticipate the possibility given your demeanor toward constructive suggestions in the past. If you don't want help understanding the 930 turbocharging and fueling systems, then for crying out loud, don't ask for it! And speaking of chips on shoulders, it appears you've got a boulder on yours. |
And Rob, one other tidbit - if you don't want to hear from very knowledgeable people, then this is definitely not the forum for you. A fart from the likes of JFairman, RarlyL8, SpeedySquirrel, CopBait and several others, contains far more turbocharging and K-Jetronic knowledge than I could ever provide, so definitely don't read their posts.
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Robby, relax.
Knowledge is good, you'll get more with time but for now, I think some of us are trying to help. Ronnie is sometimes brash, but he's full of info when you need it. Also, there are many here that can answer questions for those that know lots more than even he. In other words, there are lots of levels of understanding here. Ronnie and all others posting on your thread want to help. We want you to succeed. If I were you, I'd read some threads suggested. And if you would rather, search some out for yourself and read those. If your interested, your mind will receive it. I like picture books too but when it comes to cars, my mind will retain. What Ronnie said was good. It was helpful and trust me, if it was meant to insult you, you would know it. It was not. Please let me know anything I can help you with. I think you have a cool project and I'd love to see it finished. |
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I thought it was nice of Ronnie to take a good bit of time to read and respond with a good deal of information and suggested threads. You might nothave liked his correcting your use f terms, but you have to appreciate his taking the time and effort to try and help you (for free.)
There are e number of guys in the Sydney area who can help you. Check some of my supercharged threads, there are posts and mentions of a few guys in your area who are knowlledgable if you don't seem to get or like what you are getting through this forum. |
To answer the OP's question about why doesn't boost blow off a vacuum line before the jug.
It's simple, the cylinder pressure before boost is over 100PSI. Add an explosion from the combustion (additional PSI) before the piston rises to the top and COMPRESS that explosion, and you have serious PSI!!! So, hundreds or thousands of PSI of combustion/detonation vs ~15 PSI of boost on a vacuum hose. |
Hey Ronnie
Well I sure respect your insight and your technical proficiency, I must admit my understanding of the cars is limited but thanks to guys like you I pick up little bits of knowledge here and there and after 4 years of ownership I'm starting to understand to issues involved with modifying these old girls. Keep the knowledge flowing:) |
I ask Questions about an issue, when i or anyone ask a question about a thing i am ready with an open mind to listen to the way others have achieved it to listen to the
ANSWERS to that QUESTION Like i said its what the forum is for I dont come here to read answers like QUOTE; this whole process will go more smoothly for you if you take the time to learn,ENDQUOTE My Learning is this Forum thread and others and i am spending time in it arent i? So what do you mean by that?? please explain if i got my wires crossed i apologize theres too much deviation from original questions, If i ask what is one plus one ? first answer will be geez robbby you serious it equals two So that person knows the answer to that question to which i am eternally grateful for, i dont care how he answers it as long as its an answer Or someone might say heck i dont know i guess i better read up on that and learn it because im interested to do so,--(Thats fine also it is your choice) BUT The second answer might be, well youll learn a lot more if you take the time to learn WTF does that mean? one plus one is three? (that is not an answer) it is just taking unessesary time up for me in reading those lines that give me no answer so it should not be posted, and it also insults my intelligence because it is highlighting my lack of knowledge in a specific area, , doesnt matter if i dont know the answers ronnie, like i said thats what the forums are for, to ask a Question and to get an answer. so if you cant answer then please dont offer suggestions to what i should do with my limited time to go off and take the time to learn. Sorry Ronnie but Everytime i read those words it gives me the %$%#@ ****s Outside of that im cool :) |
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Can you please show me where i asked for help in help understanding the 930 turbocharging and fueling systems,??? Thats the point Ronnie I DIDNT ask for it!!!!!!!!!!!! I asked how high can i go with boost with the mods im putting on the car.!! As far as im concerned it has NOTHING to do with fueling systems or anything outside the parts im putting on the car! You deviate my question with things like ---oh i should take the time to learn, //i call things the wrong name,// thats not called that part Why? Im not in class im in a Forum with a Simple friggin Question your not a teacher by any chance?? Putting on IC -Simple it cools engine putting on 3.3 manifold -Simple need it to take IC Putting on Diverter valve- Simple cos someone said i need it QUESTION WITH THOSE MODS HOW CAN I GO SAFELY? Its not rocket science its a simple job for me a couple of bolts and away i go, but you seem to have a need to make it all sound confusing and that need to go off and learn stuff about it and for that i take offence. , If you dont know the answer then say so If you know then say so but please dont take it away on tangents that have no specific answer to the problem, I cant be distracted to the job at hand its not personal i dont know you, Im just asking you to be accurate and direct in your answers, answers to the specific question. PS, Thanks Mr Fairman for being specific in answer it explains clearly my question about boost pressure, you should read it Ronnie youll see the difference in styles of answering posts, you might lean how to approach it diffeently in future, i dont want to talk about this again, it is wasting time and distracting me from my build So please lets move on and hopefully we all learnt something about increasing boost pressure with a couple of 3.3 mods have a nice day cheers http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat6.gif |
Rob, I was going to type a thoughtful answer to your question in post #29 (what did I mean by "learn the component names") but following the utter nonsense that you vomited forth in your latest post, all I will offer you at this point is (I hope this is specific enough for you) . . .
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/mo...howing-ass.gif |
Robby. This statement and some others like it are why Ronnie has taken the posture he has.
"Putting on IC -Simple it cools engine" Inter coolers are sometimes called charge coolers because what they actually cool is the pressurized air not the engine. Does it cool the engine, well IC'ed engine is cooler than non but not really that noticeably. Robby, your project would be more simple for YOU if you knew more about the different parts that make up a turbocharged engine. It is confusing though, partly because our engines differ from modern engines with the fueling aspect. Younger guys who've been around modern cars wouldn't know what or why we use a fuel meter. It's complicated and archaic. But if you have one, you'd better figure out what the heck it does cause sooner or later that knowledge will be needed. I adjust mine often. Every year for smog, twice again when temps Change and sometimes when I go up in elevation I need to adjust it. It's because I understand it that I know how and why I. Need to adjust. We're just trying to nudge you in the right direction, well maybe not Ronnie anymore. Once the butt is flashed you can't easily come back from that:eek: Anyway, ask questions, there is lots to know. SmileWavy |
I've refrained from chiming in here due to your belief I was picking on you before, but geesh - can't resist now after your childish tirades. Yikes.
I was actually surprised Ronnie took the time and tried to answer your question the way he did. I think he exercised great restraint and gave you sound advice. Basically, you can't help someone that can't (won't) help themselves. Sure this forum's to learn from, however all the advice given here won't help someone who lacks basic common understanding of certain aspects of mechanics. All of which could (should) be found by simple Google search, Pelican search, You Tube, etc. Without that nominal effort expelled, there's not much folks can try to share with you that will do any good - in fact it will unfortunately likely lead to bigger problems for you and your car. Your questions here and in many of your previous posts are so far out there, it's hard for folks to give you an answer which will help. That goes back to a previous thread where I'd joked that sometimes I wondered if you'd just created an alias user name to post bombastic questions here just to mess with folks, as the questions are pretty - er - unique. Like, if you can remove your air mass meter / fuel head, or your confusion of intercooling (which Brandon addressed above), your mention of the trombone oil cooler being the solution (it isn't), your understanding of boost pressure (also addressed above), and your perspectives regarding used parts pricing. Most of those are to the point of almost seeming to be too far out of whack to be true. But apparently they are - which is fine - but that's why someone like Ronnie answered the way he did. You need to help yourself first before we can help you. I'm further shocked at folks continuing to take the high road and try to help you, despite all this. Impressed, to be more accurate. Speaks to the high caliber of folks we've got here. Me, I'd have answered your "how high can boost go" query after your tantrums with "2bar, at least... better yet - 2.5 to 3bar". Alas, I'll (attempt) to take the higher road here as well, because it's the right thing to do. I didn't use it last time, but it's rather merited now: http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/g...psaad5b913.jpg I hope you are able to listen to some of this, learn from it, and put the right (better) foot forward. You mean well, just need to open your mind a bit... |
I think Robby is probably a smart guy at what he knows, job , life etc. and he is just frustrated that he can not apply his skills to this particular endeavor and it makes him a bit testy. I remember so many years ago that I didn't understand any of it and how frustrating it was but listening to the ones that did with respect and reverence is why I command the skillset I have today. Hell, I am still learning all the time. There is never an end to learning and honing any particular set of skills...especially concerning these cars and these types of machines in general.
So all that being said my kind and well meant advice to Robby would be to take a step or two back, collect your thoughts, regain your balance and find the humility to become an excellent Porsche 930 mechanic who's advice and skills may be sought out from the next generation of owners. |
Bwahhahahahahaaaaaa
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Hehe |
Would like to ask if there is a book out there to purchase that would explain the mechanicals of these cars in a very simplistic form? Remember, Turtle had to explain to me what my wastegate pipe was. There may be no hope for me, if not, I can help support our local mechanics. Quattro, speaking of a fuel meter, foreign to me. WUR, warm up regulator? What does it do? Not looking for answers to those specific questions, but if there is a resource for someone like me? Sorry for the hijack. Anyone in the Tulsa area? I grill a killer ribeye, ribs are not bad either.
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Bosch K-Jetronic (CIS) explained - YouTube The late Bruce Anderson's book, 911 Performance Handbook, is also an excellent, fairly easy, read. It also is not turbo specific, though there is a lot of turbo information in it, and of course, much of the fundamentals of the car are shared (regular 911 'v' 930). Also, there is much good information about the historic development of the various models and info on vin decoding and so forth. Pelican Parts.com - Porsche 911 Performance Handbook This website, developed by a guy that posts on Pelican, is excellent also (again, not turbo specific, but full of excellent info). 911 CIS Primer - Index |
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Care to come clean? :) |
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And as far as answering your primary question, noted above, that was the first thing I did in my initial post in this thread - with those mods (OEM intercooler, right?) and no plans to monitor, and increase, fueling, then you should not go above stock boost levels (.7 -.8 BAR). This is not just some baseless opinion that I pulled out of my ass, but is a well established norm/standard in the 911 Turbo world. |
Thank you
R 930,
I mostly just lurk but wanted to say thanks for the links on CIS - especially the video which helps to demystify some of the underhood boxes. I'm in the process of revising my turbo/IC/header setup and was confused wrt the whole adjustable WUR discussion. After watching the video, it seems like a truly adjustable wur would be able to set a total of 3 parameters? 1. Vertical position of fulcrum point of bimetallic strip. 2. Relative vertical position of valve/diaphragm at the free end of the bimetallic strip that controls valve position. 3. Vacuum adjustment input. So can you please explain how the rpm module would interact with this to provide more fuel at high rpm boost? I would assume that moving the boost lower in the rpm range would require retuning the WUR (how would you adjust this)? What would be the best way of accomplishing this short of EFI? After the revision, my car boost threshold should be 1000-1200 rpm lower. Thanks! |
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