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How high can boost go with my new setup?

I am putting on a 3.3 intake manifold, diverter valve housing and 3.3 Intercooler on my non IC Euro 3.0ltr 930

Currently i am running a 0.8 spring n a 46mm Tial WG,
I use 100 ocatne fuel and nothing else


How high can i go now ive researched this and i dont really know for my particular configuration.

Im thinking i can put in my second spring of 0.4 bar to give total boost value of 1.2 bar which will be ok to occasionally run

And 1.0 bar will be my new safe daily driving boost level (my new Factory boost level) if you will.---
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Old 02-13-2014, 03:29 PM
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Brando
 
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I'd get a boost controller and use the .8bar spring for everyday use. From what I've learned, 1.2bar with your compression ratio and intercooling plus premuim fuel is safe-ish.
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Old 02-13-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbbyg View Post
I am putting on a 3.3 intake manifold, diverter valve housing and 3.3 Intercooler on my non IC Euro 3.0ltr 930

Currently i am running a 0.8 spring n a 46mm Tial WG,
I use 100 ocatne fuel and nothing else


How high can i go now ive researched this and i dont really know for my particular configuration.

Im thinking i can put in my second spring of 0.4 bar to give total boost value of 1.2 bar which will be ok to occasionally run

And 1.0 bar will be my new safe daily driving boost level (my new Factory boost level) if you will.---
post up when you get it up and running I have the same project on my agenda
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Old 02-13-2014, 04:33 PM
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Honestly you can 1.2-1.3 all day long on premium fuel. The key would be to make sure your fuel system is keeping up and able to maintain a good AFR through the powerband. I would recommend you get a wideband O2 sensor to monitor your AFR's. 11.0-11.3 is a good target for pump gas.

When I say "keeping up" - I would search on the forum about fuel tuning the WUR so you can trim the fuel supply under load.

Getting the fuel system right is the key here.

Chris.
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:38 AM
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If you truly wish to find max safe boost you must test with tools that can detect detonation, CHT, and AFR for starters. Boost it till it pings at safe AFR then back it off and lock it in. I see no use for street vs sport mode, if you have it safe use it.
Old 02-14-2014, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
If you truly wish to find max safe boost you must test with tools that can detect detonation, CHT, and AFR for starters. Boost it till it pings at safe AFR then back it off and lock it in. I see no use for street vs sport mode, if you have it safe use it.
Hi rarly8 dont have access or will have access to this equipment,

So it needs to be a gut feeling a guesstimate to what max safe is then ill bring it back a bar or two, need to find this based on others like yourself experiences, fuel types, histories and comparisms.

but before i jump n with my gut going just by numbers and the compression ratio of these early engines would you agree if a factory car is safe at 0.8 would be safe to run boost to say 0.9.?


As im sure when they left the factory they erred on the side of caution as with everything. Also keep in mind MR Ing was well known for posting conservative performance numbers where other sports cars manufacturers went more on the optimistic side,
So lets say the factory early Euro 930 can run 0.9 boost safely all day.

With modsfrom later model 930's as outlined 1.0 bar must be assumed it is completely safe to run all day? id argue a 0.2/3 bar increase achievable with the better breathing of the 3.3 intake, cooling of an intercooler that wasnt there before and whatever the diverter valve part does does,

The Euro car comes with factory 1.5 boost guage and if Ferry thought that occasionally these cars can be capable of that boost amount well thats cool but how does the average joe blow make use of that 1.5 boost guage without kinking a diapharam or dialing too much in with an af dialler by mistake?

Trouble there is little information ive found on boost levels of the 1.5 bar boost cars, why have a 1.5 boost guage if they could never run to that was it purely cosmetic?

If you have 2 cars of the same 245hp and 260hp. up to 1977
In 1978 the 3.3 US were only 5hp more than the Euro 1977 3.0


US ROW
246 260 3.0 litre 1977
265 300 3.3 litre 1978

Im just shooting numbers,

Are the engine difference so big that getting a non IC Euro car to have the same or close HP to the later cars is too difficult without fear of exploding, I think (based on some experience) that the 1.5 bar boost cars can handle much higher levels, remember last year? i kinked my diapharam or something and i was boosting to 1.5 well it was maxxing out the guage before i caught it ive had the plugs and oil out since and other than a few blown hoses the engine is quite ok.. which lends another thought..

SO By history do Engines Detonate/explode before Vacuum hoses blow?,

If so WHY?

Engines that have detonated in the past did they have Factory hoses or Aftermarket high pressure a and N hoses or similar on them?? i ask this because an engine block is made of steel and bits , vacuum hoses are mostly flexible rubber are greasy and slippery.. so if the said car reached its level of compression why didnt the hoses blow off? and there you go no harm no foul? I could never get how engines just blow up with all the rubber fittings and hoseclips.

Or perhaps only engines with aftermarket high end fittings detonate? and not cars with factory vacuum hoses? worth a thought.




Anyway its breakfast time have a nice day people
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Last edited by Robbbyg; 02-14-2014 at 02:17 PM.. Reason: error
Old 02-14-2014, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hams930T View Post
Honestly you can 1.2-1.3 all day long on premium fuel. The key would be to make sure your fuel system is keeping up and able to maintain a good AFR through the powerband. I would recommend you get a wideband O2 sensor to monitor your AFR's. 11.0-11.3 is a good target for pump gas.

When I say "keeping up" - I would search on the forum about fuel tuning the WUR so you can trim the fuel supply under load.

Getting the fuel system right is the key here.

Chris.
Ok a wideband 02 sensor , is a tool i might be able to get pending sale of my 8 pin cdi, ill see , but i will be cutting it close with budget costs of this engine upgrade,
My Budget is $0, im selling off older parts off my engine to pay for all the newer mods, so far im under budget

Ive ctually got the WUR out atm , is there anything i can do to it while its out?
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Old 02-14-2014, 02:21 PM
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Pushing limits by your gut is not very sensible. Get a gauge and any other "tools" recommend otherwise it's going to cost a lot more than you really wanted to spend. Better safe than sorry.
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Old 02-14-2014, 02:30 PM
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The 1.5 bar boost gage is a bragging rights toy. The stock CIS on the 3.0L engines is not capable of supporting anything more than stock boost levels. The fist thing you must do is use the 3.3L CIS and even then it may need tweaking.
Old 02-14-2014, 02:53 PM
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Put on a bigger intercooler and you should be able to run 1.2bar or maybe more in short bursts with your 100 octane gas if the CIS isn't going lean up top. If it is going lean and the usual CIS modifications don't help enough you can put on a methanol injection kit that starts spraying around .9bar
Here in Florida the boat builder supply shops sell Methanol for around $40 for a 5 gallon can so you can probably get it where you are too.

If you have the older cast iron fuel head that was originally made for a Mercede 4.5 liter V8 and it has 2 plugs screwed in where 2 more injector lines could go you could plumb in a 7th electronic injector before the throttle body to to one of them and use an aftermarket injector controller to open it. Maybe the cold start injecotor under the throttle body would work for that.

I googled Blue Mountains NSW and it looks like beautiful country. I imagine there's a lot of nice curvy hilly mountain roads to drive.
Here in s. florida the roads are flat and boring and cluttered with traffic.
The beaches and ocean are nice though and if you like swamps and alligators while being eaten up by mosquitos we got that too.
Old 02-14-2014, 04:36 PM
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RarlyL8, I thought the 3.0 cars had bigger fuel systems from the factory than the 3.3 cars i.e. euro spec
Old 02-14-2014, 04:45 PM
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My car at 1bar is still in low 11's afr.
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:06 PM
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Yes I too would think that 6.5:1 C/R with intercooler and 100 octane fuel could support 1.2bar no problem, however I suspect the stock 3.0L CIS would lean out on top.
The fuel system on the 3.0L engines has the capacity to support a lot more HP than stock, however it is adjusted/set for 245/265HP. The settings are on the rich side so you can pump it up a bit before exceeding a safe mixture up top. How high I don't know. To go into no-mans land (beyond 1.0bar) will likely require a later model WUR, and even that may need to be modified. You just won't know until you get some gages on and measure. Also remember that higher octane fuel burns hotter, a stock 3.3L intercooler may prove inadequate as well depending on how the car is used/driven. A bigger oil cooler couldn't hurt.
All these things are considerations, I've never ran a 3.0L on 100 octane fuel at 1.2bar so can only guess what limitations would pop up.
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Old 02-14-2014, 06:52 PM
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Well im more than happy to have my limit around 1.0 bar if thats about the safe limit with my mods without doing tech stuff that takes more skill that i have

Thats still a noticeable increase over stock, Ive read that for each 0.1 bar = 10hp if correct ill safely gain 20hp, that with my 915 which with the short gearing = 40 or 50hp difference, over 4 speed,

With my light car the 340hp with no money spent and
(small profit made by replacing with later model mods) will suit me fine

When you say pump it up i assume your talking about adjusting the mix via WUR with a 2mm allen key?

ive got a .7 a .8 and a .4 bar spring ill put the .7 and .4 together so ill be running 1.1 and use that as my maximum boost until dare i say it ill start going down that awful slippery slope a bit more. theres a boost controller in my centre console its disconnected ill prob keep t that way, so i dont ever have the urge to turn it up to show off..

whats the Deal with the Mercedes v8 fuel head?
was that a common upgrade in the past to get more fuel or something?
And the injectors i think i asked this, is iti mperative that the lines be in any order or it doesnt matter? cos ive got lines and nuts and bits all over the place,
rule 1 keep it organised as if lol

just remembered re intake manifold..would it be a good idea if i honed it out while its out with my dremel? would it make any difference?,

I had a bit of carbon build up around my manifold spacers so i cleaned them all out, painted too in hammered blue came out noice.
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Last edited by Robbbyg; 02-14-2014 at 07:09 PM.. Reason: adding info
Old 02-14-2014, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Yes I too would think that 6.5:1 C/R with intercooler and 100 octane fuel could support 1.2bar no problem, however I suspect the stock 3.0L CIS would lean out on top.
The fuel system on the 3.0L engines has the capacity to support a lot more HP than stock, however it is adjusted/set for 245/265HP. The settings are on the rich side so you can pump it up a bit before exceeding a safe mixture up top. How high I don't know. To go into no-mans land (beyond 1.0bar) will likely require a later model WUR, and even that may need to be modified. You just won't know until you get some gages on and measure. Also remember that higher octane fuel burns hotter, a stock 3.3L intercooler may prove inadequate as well depending on how the car is used/driven. A bigger oil cooler couldn't hurt.
All these things are considerations, I've never ran a 3.0L on 100 octane fuel at 1.2bar so can only guess what limitations would pop up.
the Wur ill look into while its out maybe theres a tweak out there,
Ive got 2 oil coolers in the car already, i have a Big Brass Tubed one up front im trying to decide what color to finish it, even wrap it in alfoil so it reflects heat, or just paint it matt black also have a beru oil cooler near the block,

When ihave my spark plug leads on correctly ( i just found out i had 4 and 6 backwards for the last few months and to think i thought it was running great , well normally eng temp sits on 90 celcius i think thats 200f when i drove to Adelaide which was 1400 kays the temp stayed steady on that even when driving through the hay plains desert which was pretty hot.

So ive got a cool running engine, with the ic will be even cooler, maybe even too cool while cruising possibly
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Old 02-14-2014, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Put on a bigger intercooler and you should be able to run 1.2bar or maybe more in short bursts with your 100 octane gas if the CIS isn't going lean up top. If it is going lean and the usual CIS modifications don't help enough you can put on a methanol injection kit that starts spraying around .9bar
Here in Florida the boat builder supply shops sell Methanol for around $40 for a 5 gallon can so you can probably get it where you are too.

If you have the older cast iron fuel head that was originally made for a Mercede 4.5 liter V8 and it has 2 plugs screwed in where 2 more injector lines could go you could plumb in a 7th electronic injector before the throttle body to to one of them and use an aftermarket injector controller to open it. Maybe the cold start injecotor under the throttle body would work for that.

I googled Blue Mountains NSW and it looks like beautiful country. I imagine there's a lot of nice curvy hilly mountain roads to drive.
Here in s. florida the roads are flat and boring and cluttered with traffic.
The beaches and ocean are nice though and if you like swamps and alligators while being eaten up by mosquitos we got that too.
Yes Blue Mountains is a great drive, long sweeping undulating curvy bends and hills wide smooth roads just the sound of the engine and the feel of your seatbelt increased pressure as you push through the corners each one a little faster than the one before
got this pic off net but next time car on road ill get some nice pics


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Old 02-14-2014, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02fly View Post
RarlyL8, I thought the 3.0 cars had bigger fuel systems from the factory than the 3.3 cars i.e. euro spec
JFairman said its got a mercedes v8 fuel head!

notice on the maf theres two unused injector plugs

I guess thats not stock then or did porsche get them from mercedes?


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Old 02-14-2014, 07:30 PM
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Porsche and Mercedes source from Bosch as well as many other makers. They both used the same unit that was available from Bosch.
Old 02-14-2014, 07:33 PM
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Rob, please don't take offence, as I am not trying to dog you, but you would be well advised to stick with stock boost until you have learned more about the Porsche turbocharging system (how the components work, how to increase fueling, what detonation is and what it can quickly do to an engine with air cooled heads, and so forth). I realize you are learning by posting and asking questions, but so far, you do not quite understand the basics.

For example, adding an intercooler is not going to lower oil temps, and in fact, can increase them as it is somewhat of a restriction to cylinder head air flow (not much of one, of course) - it will lower the charge air temperature, however, which is a good step towards helping eliminate/lesson detonation.

Also, "detonation" is not the engine "blowing up" as you put it, and has nothing to do with blowing off vacuum hoses. Detonation is uncontrolled ignition in the combustion chamber and can be caused by many things (not enough fueling, improper ignition timing, too much compression due to too high boost, excessive heat, poor fuel, and others). And having a proper exhaust, air-to-fuel ratio does not guarantee that the engine will not experience detonation if any number of other factors are present (too high compression and the like). The condition of the plugs and oil are not "fail safe" ways to tell if an engine has been damaged due to detonation - piston rings can be broken, as many on this board have experienced, and the thing still seems to run and drive perfectly (poor leak-down test results, and noticing serious blow-by gasses in the oil tank, are indicators)

Like someone above has already mentioned, going about this by the seat of your pants could get very expensive in short order.

Here are some threads that have taught me a lot over the years (and still do) -

Advanced CIS Turbo Tuning Discussion Thread. Ultimate?

ELECTRONIC CIS fueling & BOOST control

Another BL Adjustable WUR thread

Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 02-14-2014 at 08:15 PM..
Old 02-14-2014, 07:52 PM
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Rob, another thing I want to mention is this whole process will go more smoothly for you if you take the time to learn, and then use, the proper names for the various turbocharging and fuel injection components.

For example, you keep referring to the fuel head's air metering assembly as a MAF, and like other people have pointed out, the Bosch K-Jetronic/CIS fuel injection system does not utilize a MAF (MAF = mass air flow sensor - one kind is a tube/chamber with a thin, heated wire strung across it that registers voltage changes due to temperature changes created by more or less air flowing over it). The Bosch air metering disc/arm used on the turbo moves downward as air is drawn over it (against hydraulic resistance in the fuel head) - no relation to a MAF.
Old 02-14-2014, 09:01 PM
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