All this silly folklore about 930s uncontrollable handling

[93097004xx]

Crazy but it's alive more than ever.

I suspect it dates back to the NA 911 crowd not being able to handle the power of a true race breed car.

Really the problem was simply the 930 showed them just how weak their driving skills really were.

It's one thing cart around in a sports car on the limit. It's entirely a different world when your on the limit in a supercar.

Like the deference between final approach in a Cessna vs Lear jet.

Anyhow the 930 has once again made the cover of a major international automotive magazine for its dangerous handling.

[Rawknees'Turbo]

The iffy handling has nothing to do with a 930 being a "supercar" with huge power (which it does not have in stock trim), but is primarily thanks to the rearward weight bias, not enough weight over the front wheels (easy to lose control via front wheel lockup during hard breaking), and terrible throttle response in stock trim.

[93097004xx]

Rawknees's Turbo I have always liked the boost delivery for that. I can estimate the exact point in the apex where the turbo will kick hard. That's the fun thing about these cars, sideways corners sliding through, triple digits on the straights, brake in a straight line. The cars are unbeatable and 100% predicable.

They are not for the novice sport car driver however.

[Mick_D]

SOMEBODY really did drink the kool-aid, huh?

Funny how the performance numbers on these cars back in the day- 5 second 0-60, top speed 155, that sort of thing- match up really well with my 89 year old mother's 2014 Camry V6 almost exactly. My mother's car has more power than the first turbos did.

As a matter of fact, I am fairly certain that a 2001 BMW E46 M3 with the S54 engine and six-speed manual transmission is as fast top-end as any 930 in stock configuration, and faster 0-60. And no end-swapping issues if you lock up the front end or lift off the power in a turn!

[T77911S]

the 930 does have a lot of power. especially compared to cars of its day, the problem was and still is the boost comes in like a baseball bat to the back of the head and no, your normal driver is not equipped to handle it, especially in/out of a turn.
I am not a bad driver( driven a few race cars/ track time), not a good one either, but I still respect the boost. mainly because I have not had the place to really learn to drive the car without fear of hitting something. IE, no runoff room if/when I spin it.
I am gradually having to learn the car buy careful picking places to let the back end hang a little.
it has definitely taught me to have a very subtle foot.


also having to learn the bmw 330ci I just got. it turns in SO fast compared to anything I have driven and I am worried I will over steer the car or turn in too much. not to mention the throttle response. getting on it early like I would in the 930 is much different.

[T77911S]

Originally Posted by Mick_D

SOMEBODY really did drink the kool-aid, huh?

Funny how the performance numbers on these cars back in the day- 5 second 0-60, top speed 155, that sort of thing- match up really well with my 89 year old mother's 2014 Camry V6 almost exactly. My mother's car has more power than the first turbos did.

As a matter of fact, I am fairly certain that a 2001 BMW E46 M3 with the S54 engine and six-speed manual transmission is as fast top-end as any 930 in stock configuration, and faster 0-60. And no end-swapping issues if you lock up the front end or lift off the power in a turn!

the e46 is a GREAT handling car. I tell anyone in a car like that to turn off all traction control and I will race you. that's the problem with the cars these days. they make a house wife a great driver.
put someone in a 930 that really knows how to drive it and it would be an interesting race.

[aschen]

I'll take the e46 everytime in that race if the 930 is stock. Ive had my stock 930 for basically ever and it was holy crap fast when it was a newer car. Now it feels merely quick on boost and downright slow on the other boring side of the tach.

I also think the widow maker status is a bit exaggerated. I mean its not like a modern mustang that rolls over all the people at coffee and cars. Im sure a mid corner lift or finding boost at the wrong time got alot of people in trouble however.

[CASair]

pre ABS, ESP, ASC, ASR and all the electronic gizmos to help the foolish ones. Compare an 85 930 to any 85 BMW or 85 Toyota and you will feel the difference. Apples to Apples.

A comparison between a 2001 BMW and a 2016 BMW makes the 01 look pale as well.

[Mick_D]

The way the boost came on in the 930 was a ***** too, yes. My comparison was meant to show perspective.

[puddy]

I wondered about the whole widowmaker status as well. I've had my turbo hotrod around Mosport so many times, have had to make fast adjustments mid corner and other places and never once feared for my safety or had it come close to spinning. I don't know if the light weight at around 2400 lbs makes it more balanced than a real 930. Perhaps i'm not driving close enough to the edge of control?

[Mick_D]

if you're driving the Carerra with the 930 motor and 915 in it on the track, you aren't driving quite the same car as a stock 930 of the same year.

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by 93097004xx

Rawknees's Turbo I have always liked the boost delivery for that. I can estimate the exact point in the apex where the turbo will kick hard. That's the fun thing about these cars, sideways corners sliding through, triple digits on the straights, brake in a straight line. The cars are unbeatable and 100% predicable.

They are not for the novice sport car driver however.

You may personally like that type boost delivery, but it doesn't change that fact that abrupt throttle response (aka - putt, putt, putt, putt, boom) is considered a negative by 99.9% of drivers (and motorcycle racers) with regard to things like handling and lap times. And the way you describe driving the car (estimate apex point in corner where turbo kicks hard) is simply what is necessary when dealing with a significant, machine design flaw, and adds greatly to the time it takes to get from point a to point b.

[93097004xx]

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

You may personally like that type boost delivery, but it doesn't change that fact that abrupt throttle response (aka - putt, putt, putt, putt, boom) is considered a negative by 99.9% of drivers (and motorcycle racers) with regard to things like handling and lap times. And the way you describe driving the car (estimate apex point in corner where turbo kicks hard) is simply what is necessary when dealing with a significant, machine design flaw, and adds greatly to the time it takes to get from point a to point b.

Well I guess to a extend... But I love these cars for this "flaw" that's what makes it so rewarding experience. I've often though if the 930 had a sound track it would Led Zeppelin. The transition from slow melodic to absolute explosion.

[RarlyL8]

I have purposely tried to get my car to cut loose in a corner by hitting boost. It is predictable and a riot to drift out of the corner. If your 930 doesn't have that same behavior it isn't set up right. Lift throttle oversteer and corner boost end swapping was caused in the stock cars by ridiculous 225mm wide rear tires, 4200rpm boost hits and soft springs. All easily fixable.

[wayner]

I can see the uninitiated driver back my in the day taking a first drive after trading their 80 hp car.

Gingerly putting out of the dealer lot, then exploring the throttle just a little bit before turning onto a bigger road, getting a bit of a feel for low rpm acceleration, becoming more comfortable as they approach the twisted, the getting a bit over exuberant, using a boot full of throttle, then...

Boost hits! Ahhh, lift throttle, eeek, spin, ahhh! exit road backwards eieeeee, AAAhhhh!,,argh umph. CRAP!

all the the space of less than a minute for time of throttle,exploration!

Write an article from the hospital,bed or tow truck office....

[Ferraripete]

you think you are a bad ass 930 driver? give er a go in the rain...I mean a real go. make sure your insurance premium is paid.

lol.

[Ferraripete]

Originally Posted by Mick_D

SOMEBODY really did drink the kool-aid, huh?

Funny how the performance numbers on these cars back in the day- 5 second 0-60, top speed 155, that sort of thing- match up really well with my 89 year old mother's 2014 Camry V6 almost exactly. My mother's car has more power than the first turbos did.

As a matter of fact, I am fairly certain that a 2001 BMW E46 M3 with the S54 engine and six-speed manual transmission is as fast top-end as any 930 in stock configuration, and faster 0-60. And no end-swapping issues if you lock up the front end or lift off the power in a turn!

well...there are a fair amount of 930's on the road that are a bit more than lightly massaged. your 89 yr old granny's car would suffer a trump like "tremendous" beat down..."tremendous".

that said even a stock 930 was tested by all the car mags in the day and would turn 12.9 sec 1/4 @ 106 mph...tell me how your Toyota compares to that big fella??

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by 93097004xx

Well I guess to a extend... But I love these cars for this "flaw" that's what makes it so rewarding experience. I've often though if the 930 had a sound track it would Led Zeppelin. The transition from slow melodic to absolute explosion.

The flaw that I'm referring to is the turbocharger, of course (you probably understood that, though); it is a very low level, poor performing unit, and it makes no sense as to why Porsche kept using it for so long. After all, the thing hits absurdly late and runs out of steam shortly after it hits - it's a joke component, really.

Way back in 2006 or so, when I was contemplating changing it for one that spools much earlier and is more linear in nature, I wondered if I would miss the " putt, putt, putt, bang" characteristics of the 3LDZ - I missed it for about one second. It's far more rewarding to be screaming down the road almost as soon as you apply the throttle - the turbo rush is still there, but comes on much sooner and is less abrupt, and has you scooting down the road at a much more rapid pace.

It would be interesting to see if you drove a 930 with a decent turbo, what you would think about the differences.

[mark houghton]

Originally Posted by 93097004xx

Rawknees's Turbo I have always liked the boost delivery for that. I can estimate the exact point in the apex where the turbo will kick hard. That's the fun thing about these cars, sideways corners sliding through, triple digits on the straights, brake in a straight line. The cars are unbeatable and 100% predicable.

They are not for the novice sport car driver however.

I have to agree 100%. As us old two stroke dirt bikers use to (and still do) say, it's all about being "on the pipe", i.e., knowing where your power band is at and using it to it's max when the time is right. A 930 forces you to be "one" with your machine, or you're dead.

So, how many of you have made widows of your wives? (no answer means affirmation, or a lot of hot single chicks out there waiting to go a few hot laps with a single old dude like me).

[Speedy Squirrel]

I don't think too many people have seen the early thermal reactor cars stock. With air injection, reactors, and the CIS there is a big kick in the pants. I just straightened out a '79 California car, and it was a trip in the way back machine. Not a lot of power, but quite the spool up.

I think the rep for the 911 turbo comes from the lift throttle insta-oversteer though, especially on the narrow tire early cars.