Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered
 
Jeff NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NW NJ
Posts: 1,232
Was that gas measurement through the injectors or without them on? If on, and the levels are consistent, I'm thinking you don't have a fueling problem? Do any injectors leak when pressurized, but not running? There is a spec in the manual for how much fuel should be delivered to each cylinder over a given amount of time. Make sure you are within tolerance there too.

If not through the injectors, do it with them on and see the difference. You could have a couple bad injectors causing all your problems.

__________________
1988 930 Venetian Blue
Old 11-15-2016, 08:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 991
Doug,

I have the same question(s) and have come to the same conclusion(s) Jeff has. If you did, indeed, take those measurements through the injectors, while each flow is possibly not exact, they are consistent enough for that not to be the problem in getting it started. And even if it was a FD problem, it isn't bad enough where the engine wouldn't run OK.

I know the following are going to be a couple of really dumb questions which are going to be insulting to your intellect (they are not intended to be as such), but you do know which cylinders 1-6 are, correct? You do know where the #1 wire on the distributor is supposed to be located, correct? And, you do know which way around the distributor the firing order goes, correct?

With those insulting questions answered, I would recheck the wiring order from the distributor to the cylinders at least a couple of times to make sure they are, indeed, correct. I would try to start the engine with the distributor at TDC or just a little advanced.

Once you have dried the cylinders out and are trying to start the engine, you are going to have to play with the throttle in an attempt to give the engine what it wants. I was always taught to fully depress the throttle if I think the engine is flooded. While I don't know if that works for a CIS injected 930 motor, that is what I did when I finally got my engine going...Giving it a little gas as it tried to start and fully depressing it when I think it was getting flooded. Sooner or later (it was later), it finally got going, and honestly, it ran like doo doo for a minute or two while I played with the throttle to keep it going...And all of a sudden, it just ran, correctly.

I'm just a shade tree mechanic who has rebuilt my 930 engine a couple of times in my garage and had to figure out stuff on my own along the way. Hopefully, I've helped a little...
Old 11-15-2016, 09:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
Registered
 
T77911S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: MYR S.C.
Posts: 13,785
fuel flow did not look bad, although not much to compare. also depends if it was out of the injectors or just the head.

if you have fuel coming out all the time you are too rich, perhaps due to air leak or clogged injector making you run richer. how did the plunger move in the fuel head. was it sticking.'

you sure the plug wires are correct.
__________________
86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ SOLD
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[__] RUNNING:[] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-16-2016, 08:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,289
I've done several injector flow tests and always used little plastic water bottles so i could stick the injectors in the top of the bottles and the injector and steel injector lines held the bottles upright.
I don't know how you could do it with those little plastic shot glass cups or where you'd put them in the motor compartment with the injectors in them and keep them upright.
Also the plastic bottles usually have ridges on the side that help measuring fluid levels inside the bottle and they can hold a lot more gas so you can do the test over and over while holding the air flow metering plate down at different hights and flow rates.
Then you can take the plastic bottles and easily pour the gas back into the gas tank.
If your fuel head sprays fuel while the air flow meter is at rest then ethanol has deteriorated one or more of the many rubber o-rings inside it and at least one of them is leaking. Then it needs to come apart and the o -rings and diaphragm can easily be replaced. I've done that on 4 different fuel heads now. The old cast iron fuel heads are ALOT more work.

I'd post a pic of my injector flow test plastic bottles around half full but I can't find the pics and probably lost them.

Last edited by JFairman; 11-16-2016 at 09:16 AM..
Old 11-16-2016, 09:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 21
The fuel test was measured at the top of the FD. So before injectors. Something changed which is making the weird thumping sound. Below are videos from the 2000rpm break in followed by idle. It ran like this for days. A bit rough but I think that can be attributed to the clogged 3 injector and the half clogged 2 injector. The distributer and cap has been untouched after the videos below so I am pretty sure I have all the stuff set. Maybe I should start a new thread asking for advice on what might have changed.

Iceman I am very grateful for the various tests and help you are giving. All great stuff to check.

I will put all 6 injectors in cups and measure the flow post injector to see if it is in the manual. I am also going to unplug the Cold Start injector. With gas leaking from exhaust after a total of 1 minute of cranking, it must be dumping fuel. If the injectors flow test to spec, it would have to lead to the Cold Start Injector. I would think...

Thanks again!


2000 RPM break in


Idle. Little backfire at 3 seconds that was also happening on idle and when lifting at .3-.5 bar of boost while I was bedding the rings.


Last edited by m3oversteer; 11-16-2016 at 10:08 AM..
Old 11-16-2016, 10:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,289
"The fuel test was measured at the top of the FD" How'd you do that.. turn the fuel head upside down?
take thew injec tors off the lines and stick the lines in water bottles if you want to check the flow without the injectors. It will be a little different because the injectors will not open until approximately 35psi of fuel opens the spring loaded pintle valve in the business end of them.

The injectors have a fine screen fuel filter inside them and the only way to rinse that out is wire the spring loaded pintles open and backflush them with carb cleaner and at least 120psi compressed air. You can soak them upside down in techron, seafoam, acetone, or laquer thinner inside glass bottles for a few hours to a few weeks first to try and loosen or soften any fuel junk possibly stuck to the screen first.

After that you can stick the plastic straw on a can of carb cleaner into the injector and spray solvent through it to check the spray pattern.
It should be a fine conical spray like in the last picture of mine.


Old 11-16-2016, 11:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
 
Registered
 
T77911S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: MYR S.C.
Posts: 13,785
that is a VERY noisy engine.
you sure you don't have a crossed plug wire
Is that valves making all that noise

I am not a fan of doing what jim does only because I have had 2 injectors blow the pintle out when I sent them off to be tested, I did what he did above and even though I was very careful I am not sure I did not contribute to the pintle blowing out. I have cleaned the screens with just spraying carb cleaner in the input side. using a flashlight I could see inside and see the improvement.

I used the plastic bottles like he does, I would still like to know how he manipulates the lines/injectors to get them in the bottles without bending lines.
I need to check mine again and I am really dreading doing it so I keep putting it off.
I am even considering pulling the engine to make it easier.
__________________
86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ SOLD
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[__] RUNNING:[] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-16-2016, 11:33 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,289
I just wrote a long post to answer everything above and accidentally deleted it.
Oh well,,, I'm way too pissed off to rewrite it all now...
The short version is I'm over 60 and have ALOT of experience and sometimes I do this crap for a living. I know what I'm doing.
I have a lot of talent according to people I have worked for and the things
I do to cars and computers (a hobby) work very well.
Old 11-16-2016, 12:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #28 (permalink)
Mighty Meatlocker Turbo
 
Rawknees'Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: North TexASS
Posts: 15,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
The short version is I'm over 60 and . . .
. . . still super sexy, no doubt!!!!
Old 11-16-2016, 12:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #29 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
I've done several injector flow tests and always used little plastic water bottles so i could stick the injectors in the top of the bottles and the injector and steel injector lines held the bottles upright.
I don't know how you could do it with those little plastic shot glass cups or where you'd put them in the motor compartment with the injectors in them and keep them upright.
Also the plastic bottles usually have ridges on the side that help measuring fluid levels inside the bottle and they can hold a lot more gas so you can do the test over and over while holding the air flow metering plate down at different hights and flow rates.
Then you can take the plastic bottles and easily pour the gas back into the gas tank.
If your fuel head sprays fuel while the air flow meter is at rest then ethanol has deteriorated one or more of the many rubber o-rings inside it and at least one of them is leaking. Then it needs to come apart and the o -rings and diaphragm can easily be replaced. I've done that on 4 different fuel heads now. The old cast iron fuel heads are ALOT more work.

I'd post a pic of my injector flow test plastic bottles around half full but I can't find the pics and probably lost them.
I have at least 6 new 1 quart measuring cups and can fit them under the injectors. I like the flex water bottle idea though. I'll flow test all tonight and post back.

Also no gas comes from the fuel head until the meter is pressed. The plunder is a little delayed in falling back down in the meter when pumps are off. When pumps are on, it is has a lot of resistance to open the flap. Seems like the fuel pressure pushes the plunger down which closes the flapper. Could the plunger be applying too much pressure thus slamming shut the air flapper which is making the thumping sound. The thumping sounds seriously off.
Old 11-16-2016, 12:53 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #30 (permalink)
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 991
It is too bad Jim deleted the book he was going to give you (I've done that, too, and was really pissed, but I'm sure my deletion was much less valuable...) because he is the man. He is the go to guy on this forum and any wisdom he can give you, you should follow.

While Rawknees isn't far behind, he isn't quite as good as this other guy, Ronnie, who can no longer take part in this forum. But listen to him, too.

Unfortunately, I can't hear the thumping you are talking about, but you got the engine going?
Old 11-16-2016, 01:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #31 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,289
"I would still like to know how he manipulates the lines/injectors to get them in the bottles without bending lines."
Mine is an '87 so it has the skinny injector lines and they're flexible enough to do this. The thicker injector lines from the earlier cars would be stiffer but I think they will flex upwards enough to get the injectors into the small bottles that are about 6 inches tall. If not you could loosen the banjo bolts on the fuel head to give them more wiggle room.
Old 11-16-2016, 02:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #32 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 21
Glad we have the A team now. I back flushed the 3 injectors already. 2,3 and 5. I used a cut up staple to keep the pintle up. I think your copper wire would have demanded less tweezer fiddling. I even hooked the hose from the out flow side of the injector into an triggered air valve. I then filled the air valve with carb cleaner and backflushed repeatedly at about 100psi. They seemed to clean up well and produce similar mist patterns. I then flow tested the 3 injectors and the cups were the same. All that said, let me get the 6 injector flow test going.

If you loosen the fittings on the fuel head, you can barely adjust the line enough to get the injector in a cup. I am not looking forward to cylinder 1...
Old 11-16-2016, 04:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #33 (permalink)
Registered
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Secret lair deep underground
Posts: 1,529
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by icemann427 View Post
Doug,

I have the same question(s) and have come to the same conclusion(s) Jeff has. If you did, indeed, take those measurements through the injectors, while each flow is possibly not exact, they are consistent enough for that not to be the problem in getting it started. And even if it was a FD problem, it isn't bad enough where the engine wouldn't run OK.

I know the following are going to be a couple of really dumb questions which are going to be insulting to your intellect (they are not intended to be as such), but you do know which cylinders 1-6 are, correct? You do know where the #1 wire on the distributor is supposed to be located, correct? And, you do know which way around the distributor the firing order goes, correct?

With those insulting questions answered, I would recheck the wiring order from the distributor to the cylinders at least a couple of times to make sure they are, indeed, correct. I would try to start the engine with the distributor at TDC or just a little advanced.

Once you have dried the cylinders out and are trying to start the engine, you are going to have to play with the throttle in an attempt to give the engine what it wants. I was always taught to fully depress the throttle if I think the engine is flooded. While I don't know if that works for a CIS injected 930 motor, that is what I did when I finally got my engine going...Giving it a little gas as it tried to start and fully depressing it when I think it was getting flooded. Sooner or later (it was later), it finally got going, and honestly, it ran like doo doo for a minute or two while I played with the throttle to keep it going...And all of a sudden, it just ran, correctly.

I'm just a shade tree mechanic who has rebuilt my 930 engine a couple of times in my garage and had to figure out stuff on my own along the way. Hopefully, I've helped a little...
That's a good point, we've all swapped plug wires at least once. I seem to recall I installed a distributor 360 degrees out of phase once and the car started and, sort of, idled with a lot of banging and belching.
Old 11-16-2016, 08:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #34 (permalink)
Mighty Meatlocker Turbo
 
Rawknees'Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: North TexASS
Posts: 15,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by icemann427 View Post
It is too bad Jim deleted the book he was going to give you (I've done that, too, and was really pissed, but I'm sure my deletion was much less valuable...) because he is the man. He is the go to guy on this forum and any wisdom he can give you, you should follow.

While Rawknees isn't far behind, he isn't quite as good as this other guy, Ronnie, who can no longer take part in this forum. But listen to him, too.

Unfortunately, I can't hear the thumping you are talking about, but you got the engine going?
IcyHotness, you know I luv you longtime, right?!?!

And agreed about Jim - most of what I know about K-Jet/CIS, I've learned from him (lots of speed reading since April of 2016, right ?!?!?! ).

***forum glutes smooching***

Last edited by Rawknees'Turbo; 11-16-2016 at 11:01 PM..
Old 11-16-2016, 10:53 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #35 (permalink)
Registered
 
T77911S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: MYR S.C.
Posts: 13,785
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
"I would still like to know how he manipulates the lines/injectors to get them in the bottles without bending lines."
Mine is an '87 so it has the skinny injector lines and they're flexible enough to do this. The thicker injector lines from the earlier cars would be stiffer but I think they will flex upwards enough to get the injectors into the small bottles that are about 6 inches tall. If not you could loosen the banjo bolts on the fuel head to give them more wiggle room.
jim, I respect your opinions more than anyone else on here.

I have the thicker lines. first time I tried it I bent some of the lines. never have gotten them back to exactly where they were and that was a big mistake on my part.
if the lines don't go straight into the injector or the banjo fitting I have issues with fuel leaks,. so for me it is always an extra pain trying to make sure none of my lines don't leak.

what I need is an old set that I can bend and use just for fuel flow.
anyone have an old set they don't want?
__________________
86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ SOLD
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[__] RUNNING:[] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-17-2016, 07:27 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #36 (permalink)
Turbofrog
 
smurfbus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,600
I have an extra set of lines just for testing.
__________________
************************************************** *******************************
79 930: HX40Super, MS3pro+ID1000+044+E85, Ignition: 123/TUNE/MSD6A, BB+2*turbosmart38, WMI. Weight 1110kg
Old 11-17-2016, 10:01 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #37 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 21
Confirmed plug wires all square. Dried it out last night and got it running. It sounds awful. Flow testing 6 injectors tonight.

If fuel checks out, I think I will pull the valve covers. Also it is flooded again after running for 1 minute.

This video is exactly how it was sounding when it sputtered out on the side of the road which prompted this whole dilemma.


Last edited by m3oversteer; 11-17-2016 at 06:09 PM..
Old 11-17-2016, 06:05 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #38 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 7,289
It's beating the crap out of the air flow sensor plate with backfires so not good running it like that.
Checking out your rocker arms sounds like a good idea.

Last time I heard a motor sound similar to that it was a Diesel flat bed tow truck having a bad day.
Then it blew, mangled a rod and cylinder, and that was the end.
Old 11-17-2016, 06:25 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #39 (permalink)
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 991
I'm sitting here watching Thursday night football, scratching my head trying to figure out what is wrong with your engine. After rereading the entire thread, it seems to me that your problem is limited to the right side of the engine (4-6), maybe? I can't remember if it matters or not at this moment (since its been quite some time since I did my last rebuild), but if your fuel lines for the right side are out of sync at the fuel head, does it matter? Meaning you installed the 4-6 fuel lines to the fuel head in incorrect order...Somebody chime in on this who knows/remembers, please.

Old 11-17-2016, 07:15 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #40 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:06 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2020 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.