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Turbofrog
 
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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Now that I saw the two other videos it might be bad distributor rotor too. Mine backfired when rotor was melted.

Could you check and report the order of your plug wires? Have your verified your timing with timing light?

Did someone verify your cam timing is good? I dont know how it would run if not right though.

Your fueling looks fine enough to not result this much trouble.

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79 930: HX40Super, MS3pro+ID1000+044+E85, Ignition: 123/TUNE/MSD6A, BB+2*turbosmart38, WMI. Weight 1110kg
Old 11-17-2016, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfbus View Post
Now that I saw the two other videos it might be bad distributor rotor too. Mine backfired when rotor was melted.

Could you check and report the order of your plug wires? Have your verified your timing with timing light?

Did someone verify your cam timing is good? I dont know how it would run if not right though.

Your fueling looks fine enough to not result this much trouble.
I've wondered about your cap and rotor, too. Also, wondered if the cam timing was correct for your right side...Good call, Smurfie!

Last edited by icemann427; 11-18-2016 at 12:25 AM..
Old 11-17-2016, 11:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
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I am pointing to plug 1 here.





Timing goes counter clockwise. 1 6 2 4 3 5. Per this sticker on the bumper. Reconfirmed wires go to the correct plugs.





This is what I had to do for the fuel test. First short test to bleed air out resulted in exactly even fuel per injector with all misting fuel very well. I emptied the cups and am about to flow test again. I'll post results but I'm anticipating equal at all injectors.




I took pictures of the cam timing so I would be confident when looking back. Gauge is in thousandths. I would think it running as well as it was before would rule out cams timed on the wrong TDC.





I had the timing set to 1 degree advanced at TDC #1.

I wonder how I can check the distributor?

Off to fuel test and inspect rockers. I am scared...
Old 11-18-2016, 11:57 AM
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This was 30 seconds pushing plate very far but not all the way. Measured after injector.

On to the valve covers...
Old 11-18-2016, 12:27 PM
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Turbofrog
 
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You might have a rocker slip out? For timing a timing gun is needed. Mine is just a strobo but there are some meters with adjutment so you can see how much advance or retard you have without the slots in pulley.

I had a rocker fail once and it run but backfired and was very rough but since I was in nowhere and had tight schedule I drove 100 miles with it, talk about adventure.
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Last edited by smurfbus; 11-18-2016 at 12:55 PM..
Old 11-18-2016, 12:49 PM
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Cylinder #5 rocker shaft slipped out!!! Boy do I wish I had pulled the valve covers earlier and torqued it down more than 18 nm.

The cam towers are still perfectly smooth. I'm going to retighten all the rocker shafts to a greater torque. Can I just hand tighten them to a really snug feel? I can't see me and some Allen wrenches being able to do damage by over torquing.



I'll be taking this rocker to the machine shop on Monday for a new bushing. Can the rocker shaft be refurbished? It has little scratch marks on it.





[img]http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads25/IMG_36571479512274.jpg[/

Last edited by m3oversteer; 11-18-2016 at 03:00 PM..
Old 11-18-2016, 02:44 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #46 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfbus View Post
You might have a rocker slip out? For timing a timing gun is needed. Mine is just a strobo but there are some meters with adjutment so you can see how much advance or retard you have without the slots in pulley.

I had a rocker fail once and it run but backfired and was very rough but since I was in nowhere and had tight schedule I drove 100 miles with it, talk about adventure.
Wow!!! I can't imagine trying to get down the road like this!!! It was really hard to keep running.
Old 11-18-2016, 03:03 PM
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Well, congratulations! I hope that is all it is! I'm guessing if you can do a real good job on the center section, you can reuse it. The outer sections shouldn't matter a whole lot...
Old 11-18-2016, 03:51 PM
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Mighty Meatlocker Turbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3oversteer View Post
Cylinder #5 rocker shaft slipped out!!! Boy do I wish I had pulled the valve covers earlier and torqued it down more than 18 nm.

The cam towers are still perfectly smooth. I'm going to retighten all the rocker shafts to a greater torque. Can I just hand tighten them to a really snug feel? I can't see me and some Allen wrenches being able to do damage by over torquing.
18NM is not near enough torque for the rocker arm shaft nuts/bolts (I said "nuts and shaft", I know! ) - more like 18-20 foot pounds for "not new" cam housings.

See this thread for more info on them.

Rocker arm shaft jump out??

Last edited by Rawknees'Turbo; 11-18-2016 at 04:18 PM..
Old 11-18-2016, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by icemann427 View Post
Well, congratulations! I hope that is all it is! I'm guessing if you can do a real good job on the center section, you can reuse it. The outer sections shouldn't matter a whole lot...
Thanks Icemann!! I really appreciate all the help boiling the problem down. Sorry if I ruined your Thursday Night Football!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo View Post
18NM is not near enough torque for the rocker arm shaft nuts/bolts (I said "nuts and shaft", I know! ) - more like 18-20 foot pounds for "not new" cam housings.

See this thread for more info on them.

Rocker arm shaft jump out??

I am incredibly relieved to finally have found the problem. I might be more happy that I get to blame this all on a bad torque spec in the book!!! I thought my mechanical credibility was going to take a shot somewhere along thing process. Although....its not running yet...

Machine shop, oil change and satisfaction coming this way!
Old 11-18-2016, 05:37 PM
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No problemo! You best check all the rockers (including the left side) and re-tighten all. Let us know the outcome!

But this question does beg to be asked...You do know how to properly install the shafts, correct? LOL! Make sure you read Rawknees link if you are unsure...

Last edited by icemann427; 11-18-2016 at 05:56 PM..
Old 11-18-2016, 05:46 PM
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Your video is the first time I've seen one of these running with a rocker shaft walk out.
Old 11-18-2016, 07:54 PM
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I am just so relived to have found the problem. What a great day I'll have snugging up the other rockers.

Question though. Should I pull all the rockers to clean the inside with alcohol as I'm thinking oil might have worked it's way past the shaft groove. I'm concerned about leaks. Obviously I dumped a lot of oil out of the valve covers with the shaft walking out of the rocker. Or should I just torque in place?


I should be ok on the rockers. I used the feeler gauge method to make sure the expansion grooves in the shaft are set inside the cam towers. Special note that the shaft goes towards the thin side of the tower not the thick side.

Now if only you guys can get my wife's Subaru to stop throwing p0017 camshaft crankshaft correlation code at 630 rpm. I've flushed oil 3 times, replaced oil control valves, pulled the engine, pulled cam towers, cleaned cam oil ports and replaced both exhaust cam phasers with new timing chains. P0017 lives on. I'm thinking low idle is really the culprit.

Stupid 2011 outback with the v6. It has 70,000 miles. At least it can do me the favor of actually breaking instead of flashing lights in my wife's face and taunting her "your husband is too incompetent to ever fix me!!!" Or at least that's what the car must be telling her based on what I'm getting.

If only Subaru Outback owners were as involved as the air cooled Porsche gang. You guys win.
Old 11-19-2016, 09:25 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #53 (permalink)
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Removing them might be a good idea if you think they can be reinstalled better.

When installing them hold up the rocker shaft in front of where it will be and imagine the rocker arm centered on it. The rocker arm should be centered on the shaft and for that to happen one end of the rocker shaft will be flush with the thinner side of the casting for the cam tower rocker shaft hole.
Then the special bolt and conical washer will be sticking out a little more than flush with the cam tower casting and hole.

I like to use the RSR black rubber rocker shaft seals in the rocker shaft expansion grooves. Pelican sells them and other places do too.

When installing the rocker shaft and rocker arm I put a little oil on the rubber seal so it doesn't get torn by the sharp edges of the cam tower rocker shaft holes while you push it in. Some people say doing that increases the chance of them weeping oil down the road. Maybe it does sometimes but new seals and smooth cam tower holes should not leak either way.

The rocker shaft bolts are dark grey high carbon steel so I do tighten them very tight with a 1/4" drive ratchet with a special short Sir Tools allen head socket I bought here on Pelican around 10 years ago. It's made of really hard steel and is plated a sort of a gold color. To keep the conical nut in the other end of the rocker shaft from turning while tightening the bolt I use a regular 8mm L shaped allen head wrench with the short end cut off so it's short enough (but not too short) to reach the rocker shaft nut while it's in the cam tower. Sometimes you don't need to hold that conical nut with the 8mm wrench and sometimes you do.
Old 11-19-2016, 10:02 AM
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I put the rocker in and tightened all the others up and it turned right over. It is running really well now. It is taking a lot of restraint to stay below 4,000. This thing wants to go!!!

Thank you guys for all the help!

Old 12-03-2016, 04:39 PM
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Awesome! That's great! I was wondering about you the other day. Not, in the same sense that I wonder about Rawknee, but you know...

Old 12-03-2016, 04:48 PM
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