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smoking newbuild

my newly built 3.2 ss is still smoking more than I like after 1400 miles. Should I worry ?

Bored and plated Carrerra cyliners from EBS, 10.5CR CP pistons, run in with loading it properly with high loadings at moderate RPMs. Refurbished heads and everything else. I am stressed by how it smokes on startup. There is a big blue cloud, followed by a smoke trail for the first 2-4 minutes. It is embarrassing. I don't see smoke at idle after a trip when engine is hot and no, I don't overfill the oil tank. Oil is LiquiMoly 10w-40 Mo2S Leichlauf and oil pressure is 1 bar per 1000 rpm
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Last edited by trond; 07-04-2018 at 12:40 PM..
Old 07-04-2018, 12:14 PM
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You might want to do a leak down test just to confirm your rings are sealed properly.

FWIW, I had a T1 motor that smoked at start up not too long after a rebuild. I tore it down and found that some of the rings had re-orientated so the gaps were on the bottom of the bore.
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Old 07-04-2018, 02:41 PM
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Unfortunately the rings move - a LOT. I tore an engine down after a couple of hrs of running. And my carefully oriented ring gaps were all over the place. (I posted pics with them marked, on the 930 forum I think). I seriously doubt the placement of the gaps has any lasting effect. I still do it, as a matter of habit. But I know they will not stay that way from the first start up. The rings should have bedded in by now. As above - a leakdown would be useful. Maybe a broken ring on assembly? A broken oil ring would be hard to detect like this tho. Maybe pull the plugs and see if all same, or you have one or two suspect cylinders?
Does it smoke on trailing throttle, or just after you re apply some power (guide seals).
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 07-04-2018, 07:36 PM
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no smoke on trailing throttle as I have been able to observe myself from the car but it does smell. Nothing on applying power (new valve stem seals). It is only at startup and a few minutes after. Seemed to get significantly worse btw after changing from Motul 10w-40 Break-In Oil to present 10w-40 oil. I'll pull the plugs and have a look .
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Old 07-05-2018, 05:46 AM
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Do you see smoke from a warm motor on a re-start after an hour or two of sitting?
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:36 AM
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Oil draining from the tank back into the sump after sitting? Drain the sump when warm immediately after you shut it down and set it aside. Then put another container under it and see if it continues to drain over the next few days. If it does, installing a Rothsport check valve in the S hose will fix it. Not cheap but it works. Just don't install it backwards.
Old 07-05-2018, 08:16 AM
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Hello,

It is maybe just because of the viscosity of the motor oil, 10w40 seems to me too low, I would make for your place a replacement 15w50.
Old 07-05-2018, 09:39 AM
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It does sound like maybe rings not bedded in properly, and/or drain thru when sitting. As above, changing to 50 grade oil may help.
If all the plugs look same (ie no abnormal cylinders), a leakdown may tell you if the rings are properly bedded in.
What sort of oil consumption?
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 07-05-2018, 01:55 PM
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Thinking on, it sounds more like a valve seal issue than rings. The oil has to get into the combustion chamber, and on sitting, usually is via valves.
Pulling plugs may tell you if it is only one cylinder. Maybe a seal has come loose, or got torn?
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 07-05-2018, 06:31 PM
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I had a similar situation as yours. Brand new Mahle pistons and cylinders in my rebuilt 3.2, and a lot of smoke for the first couple minutes. It all went away after a couple laps at a track day....it was just what was needed for the rings to seat, hope this helps!!
Old 07-05-2018, 06:38 PM
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Pd: i would use mineral oil for a couple miles....I used VR1 for first kms and first oil change, and will change to motul 300v afterwards
Old 07-05-2018, 06:42 PM
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thanks for good advice. I do not notice smoke on hot restart, after 1-2 hours. It seems to be worse when parked uphill. It does not consume much oil but I should have a number after next weeks planned 2000 miles roadtrip.... I did not get around to pull plugs but plan to do so over the weekend. If all look the same then rings have not bedded in or there is a small seepage into engine from tank=rothsport valve.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:17 PM
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Check oil level.
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Old 07-06-2018, 10:10 AM
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Funny thing, I have much the same issue here with the CP 98 mm pistons I installed this past winter. Leakdown numbers vary between 4 and 10% and the engine runs fantastic but it smokes on start up and uses about 1 liter per thousand kilometers (600 miles). My theory it's the 3 piece oil rings CP uses. The side rails are super thin at .0165 thou and have a very low radial tension. It makes for minimal HP losses but you pay the price in oil consumption. That's my two cents on the subject.
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brighton911 View Post
Funny thing, I have much the same issue here with the CP 98 mm pistons I installed this past winter. Leakdown numbers vary between 4 and 10% and the engine runs fantastic but it smokes on start up and uses about 1 liter per thousand kilometers (600 miles). My theory it's the 3 piece oil rings CP uses. The side rails are super thin at .0165 thou and have a very low radial tension. It makes for minimal HP losses but you pay the price in oil consumption. That's my two cents on the subject.
I agree that modern rings are designed more for V type engines and can contribute to increased smoke on start up. But your oil consumption is higher than average for a CP ring package.


There are a minimum of three common scenarios that can cause excessive smoke on start up.

1. oil level is above the ring gap on one or more cylinders. this would be normal and nothing to worry about.

2. damaged ring/piston/cylinder...improper gap, etc. depending on where the damage is this may contribute to smoking intermittently.

3. intake valve stem seal damaged or has unseated itself. This typically produces excessive smoke on start up and also shows up soon after the engine has been turned off and is started after 30 minutes to an hour.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:21 AM
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Aaron, thanks for your input on the normal CP oil consumption. I'm not really happy about it and based on the regular smoke on decel, I'm leaning toward a valve guide seal issue. The seals and guides are only about 8K miles old but as you stated, one (or more) could be out of position. More to follow as I discover. It sure runs strong though and leakdown numbers help to reassure me the cylinders are OK.

Dave
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brighton911 View Post
Aaron, thanks for your input on the normal CP oil consumption. I'm not really happy about it and based on the regular smoke on decel, I'm leaning toward a valve guide seal issue. The seals and guides are only about 8K miles old but as you stated, one (or more) could be out of position. More to follow as I discover. It sure runs strong though and leakdown numbers help to reassure me the cylinders are OK.

Dave
VICTOR REINZ used to include a valve stem condom to prevent damage of the seal when installing. They no longer provide the tool and there is a very good chance of damage upon installation.

The other potential issue is it can take a good amount of force to install Viton seals on the guide....especially the Victor Reinz example. Viton seals are delicate and tear easily...sometimes its hard to see.

I use the elring seals as the are much easier to install.


You can R/R the seals without removing the heads. you would require a leakdown tester and the P7-I spring compressor from Sir tools....I also recommend that you drop the motor so that you can inspect your work and it's just easier on your constitution.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:58 AM
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Trond, I hope this chatter about my car is helping your cause.
Thanks Aaron I just happen to have some of those condoms "in stock". They work so well, why do they discontinue the good stuff? This issue will be investigated at the end of the season, winters are long up here.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:35 AM
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I am currently on a roadtrip around Scandinavia and 2000 miles of 3000 done in 3 days. I did not do any more investigation as I ran out of time before departure. I did notice there are no embarrassing blue puffs of smoke in the rear mirrors on lift off. Only on start up, and more in the morning than after having been parked for an hour. Last night it was parked nose down and no smoke at all, and it appears to be less of an issue with less oil in the tank. In 2000 miles I did not add any oil but I guess it would take a quart to bring level back up on level gauge to where it was 2000 miles ago and in conclusion I am no longer too worried
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Last edited by trond; 07-19-2018 at 10:12 AM..
Old 07-19-2018, 08:59 AM
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was trying to post picture but no go
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80SC (ex California) 3.2SS

Last edited by trond; 07-19-2018 at 09:02 AM..
Old 07-19-2018, 08:59 AM
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